Hi Victoria, Robert !
Going to Madrid was an impulsive decision. Peter wanted to go and I doubted whether we could get a room, since this is the time of the year when most people in Spain take their holidays and go out, but we were extremely lucky in getting a really nice one with a balcony overlooking the Neptune fountain and just a stone throw away from the Prado Museum. When we arrived to the hotel on Good Friday, there were blue barricades on both sides of the road and the crowds there were waiting to see the procession with the Christ pinned to the cross. It was only 3 p.m. and this procession was not going to be until 7 p.m. people were prepared to stand waiting for four hours to see this, but the best part of it was when finally 7 p.m. arrived and the procession was cancelled ! There was a lady who had come all the way from Ceuta to see this. I have no idea why, because Ceuta has their own noted Christ, with a real set of human hair and all.
The next day, we went to the Prado Museum to see a Victorian exhibition by the Pre-Raphaelite English painter called: ' The Sleeping Beauty ' by Sir Edmund Coley Burne-Jones. All of these paintings live in Puerto Rico, in the Ponce Museum so I am not likely to see them in England. There was also this huge painting about the death of King Arthur in Avalon. The theme was sleep, sweet dreams which was also associated with death in Victorian times. The roses, symbolised love survivimg death which was a recurrent theme in Rossetti's poems and paintings. Also there was the painting " Flaming June " by Lord Leighton. I enter the museum for free. Someone came to me, a complete stranger and gave me a visitor's badge. The badge allowed me to see all the exhibits including the Rembrandt one, so that was a real stroke of good luck. I think it was an angel who gave it to me. Most people do not normally make this kind of gesture.
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Hi Victoria and Maria
We always left the catherine wheels till last and we always pinned them to the side of the shed. My grandmother used to produce her hatpin for the purpose!
It never occurred to me that a painting might be permanently on the other side of the world. I suppose I'd always imagined paintings being shuffled around so that every country would get a chance to see any painting every ten years or so. But I suppose they just couldn't be moving that number of paintings all the time.
Robert, I don't know what you mean. Even though these particular paintings were bought by a wealthy collector from Puerto Rico and were lent to the Prado for their exhibition, the paintings do travel all the time, even when they happen to belong to one museum, they can be leant to other galleries etc for different exhibitions all around the world.
Maria, I suppose I meant that with literally thousands of priceless paintings by various artists, moving them all around the world must be a logistical and insurance nightmare.
Yes, it must be difficult, especially the very big ones. I do know that the big painting of Henry the VIII cannot be moved from the National Gallery in London because its too delicate.
Last year, the Royal Academy brought a really enormous painting by Matisse from St. Petersburg in Russia and the main problem seemed to have been, that the Russians wanted a written guarantee from the British government that the picture was going to be returned to Russia. Our government could not give assurances that that was not going to happen, so at one point, the Russians said that without this guarantee the picture was not going to travel anywhere. Eventually, the British gave the Russians the assurance that the painting would go back to St. Petersburg once the show in London was over.
Most of the Pre-Raphaelite painting are in Englad, dotted around the country. Birmingham has some, Liverpool has some more, The Tate Gallery in London has more too but as I am not likely to go to Puerto Rico to see these ten other pictures I have just seen. I was really very happy to see them now.
There was also a television programme which was showing the weird medieval traditions that are still practiced in Spain; like flagelation. There are people who hurt themselves with raw glass or rub themselves with a board stuck with nails until they bleed and it is a tradition that has been passed on from father to son. Also, there is a waiting list of several years to be chosen to carry these huge floats on their shoulders, all done as a penitence.
Hi Maria
I think from a religious point of view one motive behind the flagellation and all that sort of stuff was to sort of wake the person up and get him out of the everyday world so that he could focus on spiritual matters. Still, it doesn't sound all that healthy to me.
Self-flagellation is, however, cheap - there are politicians who pay for that kind of thing!
That is so very funny !
Has one of the sordid "newspapers" like the Sun or The News Of The World been publishing stories of who has been squandering tax payers money to be flagellated ?
Robert, I would do it for free !
First on my list would be Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.
Maria, I think that the Whips of all the parties get to know the little secrets of their MPs, and a goodly amount of arm-twisting goes on.
There have been lots of scandals, of course. I always say that MPs are well-known for trampling over people - and that's just getting out of bed in the morning.
Its blackmail isn't it ? and if they don't do what the whips say... then their little secret appears in the front pages of all the sordid rags, otherwise known as " newspapers "
I have to say we are very lucky with our MP Lembit Opik, he is well liked in our area, he is very approachable, down to earth, he is not grand and he really does things for the people. He will even put a word in Parliament for anyone if its needed; he has repeatedly reaised questions in Parliament about the effects of reduced bank lending to local businesses and has also secured a commitment in Parliament from the Under Secretary of State for Wales to meet with Montgomeryshire businesses. I have to say, he is a nice and really genuine good fellow. Lembit has also helped to mediate local industrial disputes arising from the credit crunch. I have to agree that most MPs do not care a fig about people's difficulties but Lembit Opik makes you feel you have a friend in Parliament who will not only listen to your problems but has the influence to help you out in the rarified world of government. In other words, he makes the whole institution of government more human, more approachable, you really feel represented. He is also doing cool things like calling for investment in the restoration of the Montgomeryshire canal in Parliament. He is aware how important tourism is to the local economy especially since British tourism is increasing. I know for a fact, he works hard. Quite frankly I do not know how he gets so much energy to be helping everyone as well as running very long corridors at full speed to get to Parliament when the bell rings at his office !
Hi Maria
Yes, I suppose there is the odd decent one, which is nice.
Two of the biggest problems are that MPs once had to protect themselves against the power of the King, and now when that is no longer the case they are using the same privileges to protect themselves from the people. The other thing is that they don't live in the same world as most other people. The reason that the French, Germans and every other foreign nation aren't entitled to vote in our elections is because they won't have to live with the results, and that's a sound principle. But the principle is violated when a group of our own people make decisions on issues whose results won't affect them - MPs deciding about the NHS, when they don't use it, or the TV licence, when they don't have to buy their own, etc etc.
Most of our MPs abuse their privileges. Like the one who would take two Jaguars instead of one to go to Parliament. One for him, the other one for his papers ! The same MP was found not to be paying taxes on his three houses, he should have been sacked, instead he got a rise on his already inflated salary. I think the last scandal with that one, was that he was consorting with an American billionare to build casinos in this country, at the same time that laws were being passed to make this type of business legal in Britain but someone spotted it on time and the plans were finally twarted !
Well, it's a career where the members decide their own hours of work, their own salaries and expenses, and their own codes of conduct, so it would be an absolute miracle if there wasn't widespread corruption.
Once they're in Parliament, they barely have to use their brains. More than half of the work they used to do is now done by the EC, and as for most of the rest of it, they vote and speak according to orders from above, following the Party line.
Then they knock on your door every five years and explain how wonderful they've been.
Some people have stckers on their door reading "no junk mail." Stickers should be made reading "no junk people."
Robert, you won't believe this !! but I just got an e-mail asking me if I wanted to be an MP for Powys from the Liberal Party as there aren't many women MPs in Parliament, they were interested to know whether I would consider being one. Can you imagine that ? I cannot even speak English properly ! me an MP ? I thought to myself... to start with, my friend Robert will dis-own me or, on the other hand... he will be happy to be invited for free meals at the House of Parliament, I hear that the wine is excellent and the food they have is not what ordinary people eat. Besides that, I would have a London home as well as the two homes that I already own, except that I won't have to pay council tax again in my whole life. Besides that... the repairs and decoration of all my homes will be free, as part of my living expenses. You know something ? I have not been lured to the job, despite the perks, for me it is more important to keep your friendship. Unless of course you approve of me becoming a.... parasite of the state.
Jigger me!
Maria, I've had a think about this over a couple of cigarettes and a cup of tea.
Assuming you're not pulling my leg :
1. You'll keep my friendship whatever you do. At least you'd be one of the few decent politicians.
2. Don't worry about your English - it's better than that of some of the MPs.
3. I would guess that it isn't a simple invitation to become a candidate and fight the seat i.e. I should imagine that there would be a selection process, where those who wanted to be candidates would be interviewed and then the local party would pick one to be the party candidate to fight the seat.
4. If it's something you want to do, and the family are on board, then do it.
5. Can you send me some House of Commons teabags with a portcullis on them?
Jigger me!
Nope, I'm not pulling your leg. Its true. That is so sweet of you, so you will still be my friend then. Here is the letter I received from Vicky Booth and I quote.
" Have you ever consider becoming a Lib Dem MP or AM ?
Are you interested in finding out more ? If so, please do come along to one of these exciting training sessions at Welsh Conference.
Yes You can ! ( be a candidate ) !
A complete introduction to becoming a candidate for the party ' Change at the top ' The New Candidates Approvals Process Explained '
A detailed explanation of the new improved approvals process. These training sessions are organized by the Welsh Party and are open if you are interested in becoming a candidate or if you want to learn more about the process. Please do come along. "
Robert here is the funny bit.
" The Campaign for Gender Balance exists to encourage and support women as candidates to our party. Providing support, training and mentoring for women considering approval and selction. One of the challenges that we face as a Party is that women are far less likely to put themselves forward and apply to vecome approved candidates - we hope that the intro of the new ( and much improved ) approvals process, in addition to the work of the Campaign, will help to encourage more women to get involved in this way. If you would like further information about these training sessions or the work of the campaign, please do le know - we are here to help.
Best wishes
Vicky Booth "
She added her telephone number and e-mail address. Robert, the thing is that it is not for my great qualities ! its just cause I am a woman and they want to even the numbers with the men in Parliament, in other words, its for the wrong reason. I wrote in their newspaper and got a thank you for my comments from the runner up candidate Mr. Huhme and also exchanged a few angry letters back and forth with Mr. Nick Clegg who is the Lib current leader of the Lib Dems some months ago. Do you remember when I told you about that? I would have thought they hated my guts ! So maybe this is how they got my name. To tell you the truth, I had never envisaged myself as an MP. Peter says that there are Welsh MPs whose English is none existente and that I should not worry about something like that. Gosh !
What Maria .. a member of Parliament!!!
Gosh you will be too busy to write to us here on your blog ...
no hang on, you will be able to to it during 'work' time and be paid for it as well.
On the bright side Maria, you might be able to change things for the better, maybe you should consider it.
Maria, write back and point out that there are currently no women MPs who are of Spanish descent and are artists, so there'll be no need of the selection process, and you'll accept their invitation and fight the seat.
OK, this is the start of the training : you did NOT exchange angry letters with Clegg. You simply had a rewarding discussion with him, in which no fundamental disagreements were involved, although there were slight differences of emphasis in your respective viewpoints, of the kind that occur within any party. Such discussions are proof that the Liberals are a democratic party who value ideas and whose leader listens to the membership.
Hi Victoria & Robert,
Well, I have been mulling over it during the weekend and you Robert would have to be my diplomatic adviser ! You sound like the guys on " Yes, Prime Minister " ha,ha,ha and Victoria my special adviser. I have been talking it over with Peter. He has turned his nose to it, pointing out that if that is the case, I won't find much time to paint. I answered that it seems that Lembit has plenty of time to even appear on T.V. shows like: " Not The 10 O'clock News " and only two days he appeared on " The Apprentice " show with Sir Allan Sugar. Then Peter said that this was no doubt taped in the evenings, after his ministerial duties. In any case, I will telephone Vicky Booth today to see what this is all about. How did they get my name to start with ? I would like to know, or did they sent this letter to every broom with a skirt in the Kingdom ? It was an e-mail addressed to me not a letter, but no doubt they know my address too. I have helped during campaign times but I doubt I did a lasting impression. And who makes the selection ? I am not Welsh and by experience... I know that if your surname is not Evans, Griffith or Jenkins, you don't stand a chance in hell to be selected for anything. Still... there might be a handful of English people there in the selection committee, anyway it would be interesting to know why they thought of me ? On the plus side, I haven't got any scandals, I have never had not even one speeding fine in my life, have a very stable happy marriage, speak 3 languages, have a well stablished family business for 30 years; feel at home in Spain and Latin America, so I suppose I do have a few things I could offer to the party, other than just helping over campaign periods. I could run in roller skates from Porticullis to Parliament faster than Lembit ! Maybe my son would be impressed. He once said he wished his mother had been Margaret Thatcher so I gave him a book about the story of Mark Thatcher with a note: " and this is how Maggie's son turned out to be " heh,heh,heh !
I have now re-read the letter, it was sent to all party members. I thought I had dis-own the Liberal party after my rewarding experience with Mr. Clegg but Peter kept my subscription going as a standing order from our bank to the party, except that the amount was reduced every month to reflect the bad times. We thought if the rest of the country is having a bad time, by suffering from this " credit crunch " as they like to call it, then it should be fair to have it reflected in our contribution to the party as well, so that they can also feel the pinch too, instead of living in their magic bubble and impervious to what happens to ordinary people. My idea was to cancel the membership but Peter, being as diplomatic as Robert is, simply reduced the amount we contribute with, to its bear bones, which means, I am still a member. Yes, I knew it, I have been asked simply because I am a member and because I am a woman. Period. Oh well, I had better go back to my paintings then. The dream to change things for the better lasted only a weekend.
Maria, they might well be looking for a Welsh woman to fight this seat, but who knows, if they only advertised it to Welsh women they might be in breach of some sex discrimination or race discrimination law, so that might be why they are advertising it to everyone.
That was a very witty reply about Mark Thatcher. I shouldn't think there are many people who would want to be like him!
Hi Robert, I had a wicked laugh about the Mark Thatcher incident. It would have never occurred to me to tell my dear and saintly mother that I would sooner have someone else as my mother, specially on Mother's Day too. Its one of those things you never forget and when I saw this book about Mark and how he really should be in jail but escaped prison only because he was Maggie's son, then I saw my chance to get even. Maybe I did a better job at being a mother, than Maggie ever did. At least, my son is not a crook !
Yes, I suspect you are right Robert they are looking for a Welsh woman to fight this seat and they have to write to all the women members in order not to breach any racial laws, although I think that they are breaching sex discrimination laws by selecting only women. Imagine if the opposite was happening ? And the letter says: Women should not apply. This is sex discrimination in reverse. I think the position should go to the best candidate. It does not matter if it is a man or a woman. As I said before, Lembit is doing a terrific job as our MP and on the next elections, I would be pleased to help in his campaign so that he can be re-elected again.
Yes, it is bringing politicians into even more disrepute than they alreay are - if that were possible - when people see MPs who are only there because of their race or gender. It should be about ability - though there's precious little of that in the House of Commons. In fact when the MPs sense that one of their number has ability, they tend to turn on him because he will be a threat to all of them.
Hi Robert,
Well the training meeting was last Saturday the 18th in Cardiff but I have just received an answer from Vicky Booth which is ambiguous. And I quote:
" Hi Maria:
Thank you for your e-mail and great to hear that you are interested in becoming a candidate ! I'm afraid there aren't any further sessions planned in your area at the moment, but I have attached a Rough Guide to the new process of becoming a candidate which I hope is helpful. The new process is being rolled out across Wales during the rest of this year and the application packs will be available very soon - if you are interested in receiving one when they are ready, please let me know.
The Campaign also runs " Inspiration Days " across the country for women who might be interested in becoming candidates -we haven't got any planned in Wales at present but if you would like to receive monthly updates about all our events and training, let me know and I will add you to our mailing list.
Many Thanks,
Campaign Coordinator
Campaign for gender balance "
Well, I suppose I can get the application pack and see what happens... I have nothing to lose.
The Campaign for Gender Balance? It sounds like a load of one-legged women.
Well, yes Maria you can always keep up to date with what's happening. And you can keep supporting Lembit.
It's just a shame that the only alternative to Labour and Conservatives should be a party run by soft-headed people.
Robert, their aim is to have more women in Parliament but to me it is irrelevant whether it is a man or a woman, so long as they are the best people qualified to do the job.
Remember when I was asked if I could teach Spanish ? Apparently, who ever asked me, only meant to gain some brownies by finding someone who could give the classes even though they never intended to hire me and they gave the job to a Welsh woman whose Spanish was as good as my Chinese ! A friend of mine attended that class and he said he asked her how do you say ten pin bowling in Spanish and she spent the entire time of the class, trying to find out the right word in her Spanish-English dictionary, in the end, she told him she was going to find out and she would tell him on the next class; and when I told him right off the bat that in Spanish the word is Boliche, he never went back to the rest of her " class " again.
So I suppose this teacher produced people who spoke Spanish in a sing-song accent.
"I know nothing. Sorry, I from Tiger Bay."
Robert, Inevitably, when the students could see they were not getting anywhere with their Spanish they stopped attending and without students the class finally closed down. At the moment there aren't any Spanish classes in my area but with the Welsh mentality; it is better not to have any classes than to have classes with a non-Welsh person.
The same principle of the tea shop that was selling delicious lemon tarts. When one day, we arrived at this tea shop, asked what happened to their lemon tarts, only to be told they were selling too many of them so they stopped doing them. Its typical ! The other one is... it is better to let a house become derelict and turn in to dust, than to have an Englishman buying it who will restore it to its former glory, this they figure, is a better fate for the house if it cannot be owned by a Welshman.
Selling too many? That sound like European Community reasoning. What were people supposed to have instead of the tarts?
Robert,
Apart from the French lemon tarts there was their boring Welsh cakes called Bara Brith which is similar to a Christmas pudding but sickly sweet. The lemon tarts were being imported from France.
I've never had lava bread. It's made with seaweed, isn't it?
No silly thing ! Bara Brith its a kind of fruit cake.
Well, we are off to Ireland on Sunday. I hope the weather holds with a few good days for the ferry crossing.
Wish you well with the politics Maria ,but frankly their letter as reproduced here sounds like one of those readers digest things.
For me ,the very fact that one is Welsh should ban that person for ever more from ever becoming a politician .Same goes for creating a political party.
Politics is a seedy sleazy business at the best of times.The problem is ,where once it was a vocation....it is now an occupation.Frankly I never listen to them any more.
Im trying to fit several things in here cos i never know when google will recognise my password....ah ..ha flagellation? hmm ..i was whipped once..in shepton mallet....that is what used to pass as a military prison...and ill be buggered if i know why anyone would volunteer for it..or indeed pay.....
Painting? as it happens ive recently gained employment as a nude painters assistant..i dont do much i just watch the model and try to look intelligent....but at times Im bored stiff! cough.
Like you maria i share the unenviable position of living in north wales...where the language is pushed down your throat...where discrimination is a way of life,and where to talk to locals about anything other than the weather results in a blank look and utter silence. oh woe is me.....happy birthday maria and if u get too drunk on that special day ...wedge yourself between the fridge and the drinks cabinet to hold yourself steady.
best wishes to yourself and peterx
p.s i only go on casebook and jtr to wind peiople up..its so easy........well not casebook anymore they couldnt stand the pace lol dumb lot he he he..that should get back
Hi Dougie
We can thank Wales for Lloyd George. Kinnock of course is a different matter.
Dougie & Robert, You will be surprised to know we had our own crucifixion in New Town with a real bloke pinned to the cross and hundreds of people turned out to see the procession. The event proved a moving and at times distressing occasion as the public witnessed centurions lashing and beating the actor playing Jesus while he carried his cross down Broad Street, with his head crowned in thorns and " blood " running down his face and body. He made his way to Newton's Cross where he was raised onto the crucifix. That was followed by singing of communal himns and scripture readings. The whole town center stopped. There were between 200 to 300 people taking part in the actual march. Its catching on, in this country, maybe very soon they will bring hanging again. Dougie, I was drawing live nudes in New Town but the model there always piked up the most ungainly positions, sometimes just like a rag doll buried in her big cushions, then I went to another place in Shropshire and then they stopped giving the classes, so now there isn't anywhere I can practice drawing from life. I will show you my live drawings on this blog in the evening. Stay tuned.
This is true, where once politics was a vocation, now its just an occupation. The MPs have now raised themselves £200 every time they attend Parliament ! I thought we, the tax-payer already paid them handsomely to attend Parliament, honestly... Maybe if I get in ( I doubt it, since my name is not Evans, Griffith or Jones, ) I could at the very least count with your vote Dougie !
testing
This is amazing...twice on consectutive days this google thing has let me sign in....after numerous attempts albeit.
Has anyone here ever watched "the rebel" starring tony hancock? A comedy about a struggling would be artist who finds fame in the art world,acquires a massive group of admirers and art experts around him only to come back down to earth with an almighty wallop.
Yes Maria you can have my vote,and maybe i could put the word around if this politics thing bears fruit.And if you go on from there to become prime minister,i would hope you would remember me and offer me some lowly position in your government....nothing special-perhaps chancellor of the exchequer?.......lets face it we could hardly make a bigger mess of things could we? Robert could be the cheif whip ,kinda mixing business with pleasure(im only joking).......Ive been out of work last 3 weeks..been searching high and low for a job...ive finally found one....but now ive got one -i dont know if i want it! what fickle creatures are we !
Hi Dougie and Maria
I'm trying to think of what position in the Government would best suit me. I can't be Foreign Secretary, because I'm not foreign and I don't know shorthand. But since all Governents are supposed to nag people to be healthy, maybe I could be Minister for Fruit. Then I could tell everyone to eat more fruit and blow raspberries at the opposition benches.
Until about 1911 MPs were not paid. The rationale behind this was that only people who were financially independent would become MPs and that owing to their independence they would be above bribery and corruption. Of course they weren't.
Until the payment of MPs was introduced, a candidate without money behind him had to be sponsored by a trade union or some such body. Now, years after MPs started picking up a salary, we find some MPs still being sponsored by unions, and others paid consultancy fees by big business, in addition to their normal salaries.
Yes, that Tony Hancock film was a very good satire on the shallowness of the chattering classes. The central figure, Hancock, who plays the talentless "artist" actually comes out of it quite well since at the end of the film he is back in his flat in East Cheam and still banging away at his sculpture, convinced his work is important despite the whole world being against him.
Hi Dougie, I am sorry to hear that, but NO ONE has to do anything they don't like doing. Life is too short for being stuck doing something you don't like, before you know it, life is over. You must ask yourself if you had your wish what would you really be doing ? and then focus on getting exactly that and you will see how rewarding life will become.
No. I haven't seen that film but it rather reminds me about an experiment someone famous did in New York; he invented an artist and so he invited gallery owners for a cocktail party in honour of this fictional artist without the others knowing the artist did not exist and also got some journalists from prominent newspapers in. to interview the gallery owners who were extolling the wonderful work of this artist they had never met, let alone seen his pictures. The interviews appeared on the newspapers the next day. Can you imagine the shock they must have got when they realised they had been wittering about someone who did not exist let alone produce any work? Unfortunatelly this is how the art world now works, it all has to do with promotion and the general public who do not like the work that the gallery owners are promoting are quickly made out to look as " ignorant " or " unsophisticated " and for fear of not sounding ignorant, most people go along with it. That is called snobbery.
Dougie and Maria
One of the most chilling experiments I saw was done to test people's obedience to authority. An advert was placed inviting people to participate in an experiment. Probably they were paid a fee and expenses. Each time it would start the same way. Two men would meet in the reception area and start chatting. One of them was a member of the public, the other was a "plant" and was part of the team doing the experiment, but he didn't tell the other man that.
The plant would say that he hoped the experiment wouldn't be too strenuous, as he had a weak heart.
Then a man in a white coat (to convey the impression of authority) calls the two men into separate but adjoining rooms. He tells the member of the public that the man next door has been wired up to some electrodes and that the idea is to give him electric shocks, which is essential to the experiment.
The member of the public is told to administer the shocks by turning a knob. The further he turns it, the bigger the shock.
As the member of the public starts turning the knob, the plant in the next room lets out a little groan which can be heard. The man in the white coat then orders the knob to be turned further, and the further the knob is turned, the louder the cries and shrieks from next door.
When the members of the public mention that the man next door has a weak heart, the man in the white coat assures them that he knows about it and everything is under control.
They tested a number of people, and a few refused quite early on to turn the knob any further, but a fair number went quite a long way down the line, some even the whole way, turning the knob to its maximum despite the shrieks of pain from the man next door.
Robert, It just goes to show doesn't it, that people can be very easily manipulated. I also think that the government is trying to cajole and brainwash the public into thinking that it is " normal " to be manhandled by the police for no reason at all. That is " normal " to be arrested and kept in jail with no charges even though there is nothing against you. An 18 year old was arrested on his birthday when he went to the police to hand in a telephone, you would have thought that the young man had done a good citizen's deed by handing in lost property. They kept him in a police cell for four hours until he was finally allowed to go home.
Robert,
Does that suggest that we are a nation of sadists?I think people overlook the fact that we are underneath this veneer of civilised behaviour ,mere animals...the sabre tooth tiger lurks in all of us I fear....it usually only rears its head when necessity demands it....grrrr
Maria .go join jtr forums..youd be in your bloody element right now....the latest decree ,apparently, is..no one must in any way discuss casebooks merits or de-merits...its quite amusing...pilgrims either left or been kicked off for merely saying what everyone knows to be true.....i fear i might well be the next..the novelty is wearing off anyway.......your feelings robert? or would u rather not comment? it goes no further than here..think of me as your priest and marias blog as a kinda confessional box...tis a funny old world.
still waiting for these "nude live drawings" you promised me and robert..maria lol
Dougie & Robert,
No. I don't think Robert was trying to say that we are a nation of sadists. The experiment showed that most people have a sheep mentality and would do anything if they perceived that an authority is ordering them to do it. Even though that " authority " was a faked one. The people in the experiment did not stop to think that this might not be a real doctor ordering them to torture another person. The member of the public who was ordered to torture someone who had a weak heart, assumed he was being ordered by a proper doctor because the " authority " was wearing a white suit. You see.. I would have questioned it and asked him why didn't he pushed the button himself ? If the person died, then it would have been my fault not the one telling me to do the deed. I am afraid soldiers are like that. They do not question authority, they just obey orders like robots. You can see this in real life when the American soldiers tortured beyond belief men, women and children in the prisons of Abhu Ghraib and Guantanamo, their excuse was: " I was following orders from above " and the so called: " rendition flights " too, where there was no trial, just encarcerations and torture. This goes against the Geneva Convention and all the rules of a civilized society. But we are being asked to accept torture as normal. There are people in the U.S. that are already brained washed into thinking this is okay, that torture is normal. Well, it is not normal.
No. This is not a confessional as you think Dougie. There are other people reading this blog but choose not to write; but they are following it and reading it, even from other countries.
I will post the nude drawings tonight, as I am now on my way out and tomorrow we are off to Ireland but I will take my lap-top, so that I can chat here.
Actually, I'm not sure, but I've an idea that the experiment was conducted in America.
The British think of themselves as a nation of eccentrics and individualists, but I think this has more to with the behaviour of certain upper-class people who historically have been able to do what they liked, because there was no one to call them to account. Actually, the British have an extremely strong herd instinct (or did have, until recently).
As an example, there used to be an informal test for new students at one of the Oxbridge colleges. The newcomer was given a cake to eat. The cake contained something foul. There were three possible responses :
1. The student bit into the cake, grimaced, then went ahead and swallowed it. This was the worst reaction, as far as the upper classes were concerned. The student wasn't "one of us."
2. The student tried to remove the cake from his mouth quietly when no one was looking, and put it on his plate. This too wasn't really good enough.
3. The student spat out the cake contemptuously. Full marks.
You see, there are those who obey the rules, and those who are above them.
testing
Maria,
I think weve been down this road before about guantamano and connecting issues.but Id like to say something about the unfairness or perceived unfairness of said place.
I personally know no-one who has been hauled off to guantamano bay.I know no-one who knows someone who has been taken there.I know of no-one who knows someone who knows someone else etc .So i would suspect that whoever has been dragged off to that place has been so treated because there is very good reason to believe they are involved to some degree in terrorist activities.If these people have their front doors broken down,id prefer if the authorities did it with a hand grenade frankly. If the torture of any of these people leads to just one atrocity being avoided ..or one maiming ..or one death....then im all for it.
Spare a thought for the poor hostages who have had their heads sawed off with bowie knives.....the poor victims who had no alternative but to jump 35 floors from an opening to escape the raging inferno of 9/11.....thats not normal either...if terrorists stopped flying planes into buildings,maybe therewould be no need for torture techniques to be applied in order to stop another atrocity .
Dougie, it just goes to show you don't read the latest news at all. The programme began with the C.I.A. leaders in the grip of an alluring idea: They could get tough in terrorist investigations without risking legal trouble by adopting a set of methods used on Americans during military training. How could that be torture?
In a series of high-level meetings in 2002, without a single dissent from cabinet members or lawmakers, the United States for the first time officially embraced the brutal methods of interrogation it had always condemned.
This extraordinary consensus was possible, largely because no one involved -not the top two CIA officials who were pushing the programme, not the senior aides to President Bush, nor the leaders of the Senate and House Intelligence Committeees- investigated the gruesome origins of the techniques they were approving with little debate.
According to several former top officials involved in the discussions seven years ago, they did not know that the military training programme called SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, had been created decades earlier to give American pilots and soldiers a sample of the torture methods used by Communists in the Korean War, methods that had wrung false confessions from Americans.
Even George J. Tenet, the C.I.A. director who insisted that the agency had thoroughly researched its proposal and pressed it on other officials, did not examine the history of the most shocking method: the near-drowning technique known as waterboarding.
The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the U.S. in war crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favourite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.
They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE programme itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective.
Nor were most of the officials aware that the formor military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation, or that the Justice Department lawyer most responsible for declaring the methods legal had idiosyncratic ideas that even the Bush Justice Dpt. would later renounce.
The process was "a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiam" a former CIA official said.
Today, asked how it happened, the Bush administration officials are finger-pointing. Some blame the CIA, while some former agency officials blame the Justice Dept or the White House.
Philip D. Zelikow, who worked on interrogation issues as counselor to Secretary of State, Condolezza Rice in 2005 and 2006, said the flawed decision-making badly served President George W. Bush and the country. 'Competent staff work could have quickly canvassed relevant history, insights from the best law enforcement and military interrogators, and lessons from the painful British and Israeli experience," he said. "Especially in a time of great stress, walking into this minefield, the president was entitled to get the most thoughtful and searching analysis our government could muster."
After years of recriminations about torture and American values, the Bush administration officials say it is easy to second guess the decisions of 2002.
The bottom line of all this is, that it seems all these people weren't incapable to distinguish the difference between right and wrong.
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