Leonardo da Vinci has been described as the greatest genius the world has ever known, and for good reason. He was a dreamer inspired to be a painter, a sculptor, an architect, a musical composer, a writer and an outstanding inventor. He designed an aeroplane and a submarine 500 years before they appeared in the twentieth century.
A genius is a visionary and a visionary is a dreamer. We are all dreamers and we may all be visionaries but we are not all geniuses. The difference between the da Vincis of this world and others, is that they can pluck a thought or an idea that comes to them in the still of the night, in a dream and create from it reality. To them, the true world is their inner world. Above all, they are good listeners, not only to other people but to that small, quiet voice within.
Dreams of the famous and infamous throughout the ages have without doubt helped to make history and shape our present way of life. In essence, however, their dreams are no different in any way from our dreams. We all have prophetic dreams, warning dreams and inspirational dreams just as they did, but if we do not accept them as sources of power and original thought, and acknowledge that we can obtain from them all information and solutions we can possibly need during our lifetime, they will be content to remain in the background like shy friends.
Recognize them, however, and immediately they step forward and begin to put our house, the mansion of our soul, in order. But, llike Professor Kekule said, we must first learn to dream.
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Maria, what's your opinion of this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/oct/13/leonardo-da-vinci-painting-discovered
Thank you very much Robert for the new information and the link. The drawing is exquisite in its detail and it has the very strong drawing lines so characteristic of Leonardo da Vinci. There is an identical pose to this drawing by Leonardo which he used for the painting of Beatrice d'Este when Beatrice married Ludovico Sforza the despotic ruler of Milan, who was nicknamed 'Il Moro' (The Moor) because of his dark complexion. He was a vain and boastful man who ruled his glittering court with an iron hand.
It was a classical marriage of purses. Beatrice d'Este, whose family ruled the neighbouring city-state of Ferrara, married the Duke when she was only 15 years old and she bore him a son when she was 17. But she died in childbirth a few years later. The composition is identical to the new recently discovered drawing. Very interesting ! Thank you very much indeed.
Hi Maria
Well, I can't judge these things for myself, but it looks pretty good to me. You wouldn't think that he could get so much into what is after all only half a face.
What is that mark under her eye that looks a bit like a tear?
Hi Robert,
I think the painting is really beautiful. The first link you sent me didn't show all the detail that we can see on this second one.
No, that is not a tear. What happens is that over the rosy cheeks, Leonardo has painted a very thin layer of grey shading and as the centuries have passed, that little spot has faded, so you can see more of the peachy skin tone, underneath it.
According to the article, Martin Kempt, emeritus professor of the history of art at Oxford University believes that "by a process of elimination" the fresh faced teenager could be Bianca Sforza, the daughter of Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan from 1452-1508 and his mistress Bernardina de Corradis. The picture's name is:
The Bella Principessa.
Maria, I noticed there's no blue in the picture. When did the artists start using that expensive shade of blue - I can't remember what it's called?
Hi Robert
The blue is lapis-lazuli, is a semi-precious stone. The best quality of lapis-lazuli is found in Afghanistan. Even now is very expensive to buy. A tiny tube costs £80 pounds but today we have excellent much cheaper substitutes. The most expensive colours are red.
Robert. Today, I read this exciting article in the Daily Telegraph about Leonardo da Vinci by Nick Squires in Rome.
"It sounds like a cross between a Dan Brown novel and an Indiana Jones adventure.
An Italian Art expert claims to be on the verge of discovering a long-lost Leonardo da Vinci masterpiece hidden in a secret cavity behind a palace wall.
Maurizio Seracini, a university professor believes that a cryptic message in a huge artwork in Florence's Palazzo Vecchio (Old Palace) suggests Leonardo's "The Battle Of Anghiari" is concealed beneath.
He believes it was painted over with the fresco -The Battle of Marciano in the Chiana Valley- by Giorgio Vasari, another Renaissance artist, in 1563. Professor Seracini believes he left a clue to what was beneath by depicting a military banner that bears the words "Cerca Trova" -Seek and you will find-
After years of detective work, Prof. Seracini has finally been granted permission to investigate what lies beneath. Florence's new mayor, Matteo Renzi, 34, is supporting the endeavour and wants to see the project realised as soon as possible.
If Prof Seracini is proved correct, the discovery would be a worldwide sensation -the painting is believed to be an immense battle scene, three times the size of Leonardo's Last Supper, Prof Seracini has already used radar and X-ray to detect a cavity behind the section of wall on which the message was painted. He believes that a gap of an inch was left by Vasari in order to protect the earlier work.
Leonardo painted The Battle of Anghiari, his largest work in 1503 to mark Florence's proclamation as a republic, after the Medici family were toppled as rulers of the city.
He never finished it and when the Medicis returned to power in 1560's, Vasari is thought to have been commissioned to produce the new work. Scholars have never been able to establish the location of the Leonardo painting leading to decades of speculation and intrigue.
If prof. Seracini's hunch is right, it would be a case of life imitating art- he appears in The Da Vinci Code where Dan Brown refers to him as "an Italian Art diagnostician"
Prof. Seracini first noticed the battle flag clue more than 30 years ago. But it is only in recent years that advances in technology have enabled him and other researchers to "see" behind Vasari's enormous fresco, in the Hall of the Five Hundred.
Prof Seracini and colleagues plan to use a neutron beam projector to determine whether the wall hides the linseed oil-based paints that Leonardo was known to have used.
If a Leonardo is discovered, Florence will face the unenviable decision of whether to remove the Vasari in order to expose the long-lost masterpiece. Marco Agnoletti, a spokesman for the mayor, said:
"Vasari's painting is an important work in its own right and there would be legal issues to resolve. For now, we just want to find out whether the Leonardo painting is there or not. We may find nothing. But if there really is a work by Leonardo, it would be of huge importance to the whole world."
Prof. Seracini said: "I have been searching the documents for many, many years and I have not come across anything which suggests that the painting was destroyed, damaged or removed.
"There is no evidence to hint that it is not there any more.
"It was considered by Leonardo's contemporaries to be his foremost masterpiece. It represented the highest achievements in Art reached at the time, during the early Renaissance.
Maria, that's exciting news and presumably the painting would appear in its full unfaded beauty. There's one thing that bothers me, though : if it was considered at the time to be of such great importance, why would they obliterate it?
Robert,
If you re-read the article you will find that the painting fell out of favour when the Mecidis came back to power. Leonardo painting was done when the Medicis were deposed since the painting was originally commissioned to mark Florence's proclamation as a Republic and rather than destroy it, another wall with Vasari's painting was put in front of the Leonardo's picture.
Hi Maria
I don't think they should destroy the Vasari, since I'm confident that in another 50 or 100 years time they'll have the technology to preserve both paintings.
Robert, I don't think they will, since Giorgio Vasari's work is an important painter in its own right and there would be legal problems. Vasari also wrote the chronicles of everything we know about the life and times of the most distinguished Renaissance painters. When I can, I will put up Vasari's painting where the professor claims Leonardo's lost painting might be hidden underneath it.
Maria, it makes me wonder whether this may have happened to any other artists - their work being painted over.
Oh yes Robert; with the modern techniques they have found earlier pictures underneath other paintings
If you recall, during the English Civil War, people painted over murals in white colour to protect them against Cromwell, when he ordered the churches to destroy all images.
This is always the case when a painting goes out of favour and depends of who is in power. As the Catholics lost their power not only the paintings were destroyed but also their beautiful monasteries.
Yes Maria, this was pure vandalism. And it wasn't just paintings e.g. they would lop off delicate wooden carvings with their swords.
Kenneth Clarke once said, apropos great architecture, that people will not build it until there are reasonable prospects that it will be allowed to remain standing, i.e. a period of peace is essential.
The trouble of course is, these religious paintings were never just works of art - there was always a religious statement forming part of their significance, and I suppose that's why they were attacked.
Robert, I like the statement Michelangelo did with a very pesky priest who was always complaining to the pope about him. In one of his complaints to the pope, he made Michelangelo dress all the nudes in the Sistine chappel, so in revenge.. Michelangelo painted the face of this priest in hell. When the priest saw his face in hell, he naturally went over to see the pope to complain about it, demanding Michelangelo remove his face from hell at once, to which the pope replied: "I have the keys to heaven, but only Michelangelo has the keys for hell, go and ask him." After 500 years, we can still see the priest's face in hell where he rightly belongs. that is a neat revenge.
Ha, ha! Well, the priest should be grateful that Michelangelo gave him a little immortality.
I think I raad that when building the old cathedrals, the gargoyles were often caricatures of the stonemasons, carved by the masons themselves. It was just their way of saying, "Look, I exist."
Hi Robert
I think priests tend to take too seriously this heaven and hell thing. The priest should count himelsef lucky that Michelangelo didn't portray him with the body of a vampire! I would have added some horns too. Heh,heh
If the masons looked like that..I somehow doubt it. The gargoels were meant to scare the evil spirits away although I would have thought that it probably attracts them more, rather than deterr them.
It's amazing when you think about it, Maria, that here is this holy building and yet they feared evil spirits within the building itself - hence the practice of leaving the north door open during baptisms, so that the evil spirit thus driven out of the infant would have an exit and not cause trouble in the church.
Or... the veil over the face of the bride so that the devil can't see know who is getting married!
The roads in Wales are twisted because is faster for the devil to travel on a straight line. Its nothing more than obsessive compulsive disorder. Playing on people's fears.
I heard that Polish brides wear a veil to keep the flies off. Hee, hee.
No offence to Polish women, it's only a joke.
Christianity is a funny, strange religion. Who would through his own son to the lions? I ask. No one in their right mind. Yet God did by sending Christ to be devoured by Jewish and Roman beasts. Knowing the outcome as God is suppose to know everything, I would say that was a cruel thing to do to your own son.
Hi Maria
Well, David Hume once made the comment "We are here got into a fairy land" and I think this just about sums it up.
The problem is even worse when one considers God as father to human beings. For what kind of father allows his children to come to harm? Many human parents try to counsel their children against dangers, and in the end are obliged to say "Well I've tried, but it's their life and they'll have to learn the hard way." However we are here talking of a father who absolutely KNOWS with CERTAINTY that a certain course of action will lead to disaster, yet does nothing. What kind of father is that? Plus, in the case of human beings, innocent people get killed as a result of these mistakes - e.g. a man high on drugs may knife some innocent passer-by.
Also, since Jesus is supposed to have been resurrected, where's the sacrifice in that?
Another thing is, you can't take someone's guilt and punishment away from him and take it on yourself. If I have a friend who robs a bank, and I go to the police and say "Let him go, and I'll serve his sentence instead" they will think I'm crazy. And they'd be right.
Robert, the bible is the book of contradictions. In the 10 commandments they have: " You Shall Not Kill" but then you find a story where God is commanding Abraham to kill his own son ! You tell me where is the sense in all this? If I were to ask a mother to kill his son, she would think that I'm mad at best and send me to the looney house, but because it is God who gives this command is it all right for him to infringe his own rules. No sense at all.
The Jewish people don't even believe Jesus is the messiah yet the Christians are ready to kill millions in the Middle East for the sake of "the chosen people" (the Jewish) isn't that crazy?
Well Maria, I think the story of Abraham is supposed to have occurred a few centuries before the ten commandments but you're right, it's a disturbing story.
The imprerssion I get from the bible is of a god saying, "I made the mountains, they're mine. I made the seas. They're mine. And the stars are mine, the trees are mine, and you're mine*, he's mine, she's mine, and I make the rules, oh yes."
*(in small print) I hereby give you free will.
Re the Jews, I think the westerners feel guilty about how the Nazis treated the Jews, and ever since have been trying to make it up to them.
Robert, it wasn't only the Nazis who treated the Jews badly they were treated badly in all of Europe, this is why the Europeans sought to make the state of Israel, to get rid of them, lump them there. During that time, England ruled in Palestine so the government at the time thought of re-locate them there. At one point, the Zionists thought about South America or even Africa but because England at the time ruled Palestine and this is where they hailed from, that is how they finally ended up where they are now. Obviously the experiment has been a total failure and a disaster but the Europeans guilty concience now feel they have to give them whatever they want. Whilst the U.S. backs them, arms them, and supports them. Of course, this is also a self fulfilling prophecy.
As far as I know, the bible was written some 30 or 40 years after the apostles had died, even though some of the books have the apostles names it wasn't them who wrote them and the Old Testament was much much earlier and they share a common genesis with the Koran and the Tora.
One of the reasons the Jews have come in for bad treatment, is the belief that they killed Jesus. In fact, it was the Romans who killed Jesus.
Another reason is, the moneylending. But in the Middle Ages, there wasn't much else that they were allowed to do.
Looking down the line in another 100 or 200 years, when American power starts to wane (as all great powers have their day and then decline) I can't see the Jews hanging on there indefinitely. The question is, when push comes to shove, will they use The Bomb?
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Hello Maria and Robert,
again there is so many interesting conversations going on here .. we just need more hours in a day!
On all the comments re God and religion .. I see it in a similar way as you see art Maria. There is a depth to everything, and when you look at something just in the literal sense, from say the bible, it can seem plain crazy. But there are levels of understanding .. maybe it is seven .. not really sure. There is always an esoteric meaning to the scriptures, which makes far more sense sometimes.
I have never read very much from the bible, being more interested in eastern traditions .. which seem far more logical to me. But when it is shown to you, it is so obvious that the inner meanings in all true scripture are the same. Written in different times for different needs.
I love the latest 'Leonardo da Vinci' drawing .. very beautiful and yes, very much like a Leornardo in my eyes.
He I believe, was in some esoteric school .. 'The School of Athens' .. Platonic teachings, type of thing, along with other renaissance humanists, the likes of Marsilio Ficino.
testing
Hi, I guess Im a bit of a philistine really...I mean I can appreciate the beauty of Art of which the works of leonardo da vinci(to mention only 3 of such masters)are but a small part.I mean Leonardo da vinci...or "Lennie" as I knew him when he dabbled in a bit of the ole charcoal and water colour paintings outside the "Lamb and Duck" in Bethnal Green in the 60s,was ,well ,you know ok in an ok kind of way.His only failing as far as I could see was his total inability to paint chickens.Many a time I recall saying to him as we lingered over a pint of bitter and a cadburys creme egg in the local pub.."Look Len (when I was mad I always called him Len and not Lennie for some odd reason)..anyway ,many a time Id say "look len! you Must REALLY learn to brush up (excuse the unintended pun)your chickin pics..I mean the structure of your chickens just aint right..you know?"Id remark "Its all about structure,form,colours and you just aint cutting the mustard Im afraid!" Hed sulk for a while of course..but hed recover..after all is said and done I was only trying to help now wasnt I?....By the way anyone know What Lennies doing now?GH avent seen him for ages....I guess maybe hes branched out into painting and decorating or something..you know I always thought that guy had a future..he just needed to focus a touch more.
But anyway my favourite artist? This might very well shock and amaze ya,cos it aint really yer mainstream sort of "brush hound"..oh no heaven forbid!Now Im not trying to take anything away from Lennie ,he was adequate I guess..but the real star of the show for me would be "Giles" of the old Sunday express.....His cartoons were ,to coin a phrase "magic"....there in a maybe 6 inch by 6 inch canvas was a political or social comment embedded in a lampoon...but it was more than that...within every cartoon lurked the main point and maybe 20 or 30 sub plots....grandma kicking the cat...the kids climbing up the drainpipe outside-the milkman going arse over head on the slippery drive way...a pigeon being stalked by a cat....grandads newspaper slowkly catching fire as he nodded off by the fireplace etc etc etc....traditional art? certainly not ! But genius of a sort I have no doubt.....
ok now im orf to knock up a few masterpieces before dinner...wot? you didnt know i was a painter?....you didnt?well bless my soul! oh yes..i taught stan goff all he knew..and a bit more besides i might add....yes ive exhibited my work at many many prestigious places ...soho, picadilly circus,gobblers gulch (battersea power station) to mention only a few....But Im not one to indulge in self promotion,or name dropping,so i better stop there before people begin to suspect im conceited....know wat i mean like?
Robert,
Interesting bible discussion.The bible is a mass of contradictions,but forever with an undercurrent of death and destruction portrayed as meekness,gentleness and kindness.Only the church could get away with THAT!
The gospels-so named the Synoptic Gospels because they see eye to eye with each other..when of course they do anything but..its the complete opposite in fact.How did the Church fail to see it? Did the message get lost in translation? Did the Church leaders even read them?What is often missed and rarely said is that the bible is a selection of transcripts,and a rather arbitrary selection at that...its why we get mentions of "the lost gospel of thomas " etc..it /they were never lost-they just werent included. How on earth the Bible,religion and associated clap trap has entranced the world for 2000 years ill never understand....if there is evidence of a loving merciful kindly god,all i can say is ive yet to encounter it.
Hi Victoria and Dougie
I think we just have to use our own consciences. For someone asking "Is it right to do X? Is it wrong to do Y?" all the gods under - or over - the sun aren't going to help.
I know in the past one argument for religion has been god as a kind of super Brian Clough figure, letting man know when he gets too proud, raising his spirits when he gets too despairing. But science can do that. From one perspective, we can work out nature's laws and master the world. From another, we are specks of dust amongst an infinite number of dust specks.
(Victoria, Brian Clough was a great - and famously unpredictable - football manager).
Yes Robert,
you are so right we can only do what we feel inside is right, from our own consciences .. from our heart. We work from where we are at, as it were .. can't start from anywhere else. The same as if you were say an alcoholic .. you can not recover unless you first admit to yourself that you are an alcoholic.
Maybe that does not all relate sensibly to you .. but it does to me, because it is very late here, and I am tired.
Thanks for explaining Brian Clough, I had never heard of him.
It is a good analogy in a way, as they say you are never given anything (situation) that you don't have the strength to deal with.
And Robert your last statement about mastering the ( mostly physical) world with science .. and on the other hand being specks of dust amonsgst an infinite number of specks of dust .. is just so true, and humbling.
Strangely enough Brian Clough was a God to some-the Devil to others....loved by some-hated by some....
A master of psychology,he wrote his own script,acheived that which on paper he had no right to acheive...yes for many Brian Clough walked on water,feasted with the Gods,then drank from the poisoned chalice,it would seem deliberately.
Football is the poorer for his passing (excuse the pun) He was a man of his times-he wouldnt be allowed on centre stage in these enlightened times.He was a guy who spoke his mind-he wouldnt be tolerated today....its a crime these days to have opinions which conflict with government or PC policy.
The only difference or conflict within this analogy is Brian clough existed-God didnt.
Hi Victoria
Well as someone said about philosophy - it's like having to rebuild your boat on the open sea.
Dougie, I think there were two reasons why he didn't get the England job. 1. He was outspoken. 2. He won things.
Welcome back Dougie. Hello Victoria and Robert.
Victoria, you mentioned Marsilio Ficino the great Renaissance Florentine scholar and philosoper who during this period, he was responsible for transforming the European society in a true and profound lasting manner; Finally, after the end of the Middle Ages or better described as the Dark Ages when all the knowledge and man's endevours contained in books were tossed with glee to huge bon-fires, when the "Holy" inquisition was in place, a time where a horse could condemn a person of witchcraft and be burnt alive at the stake. When Galileo Galilei had to deny that the earth moved around the sun to save his life but he defiantly declared: "But it still moves", where the church would decide who would live or die and endure the cruelest tortures. After all this period of ignorance and religion, along came the Renaissance with great minds like Marsilio Ficino. To Ficino the writings of Plato and his followers contained the key to the most important knowledge for man: Knowledge of himself, that is, knowledge of the divine and immortal principle within him. He made these principles a living ideal for himself and for his age. Under his immediate influence was the most notable, brilliant and influential men ever to have assembled in modern Europe. These were the men who embodied the Renaissance. Directly inspired by Marsilio Ficino were leading statesmen like Lorenzo de Medici. it is said that the whole intellectual life of Florence at this time, was under his influence, both during his life and after his death. The scholars find it hard to capture or define the elusive quality of spirit that not only bound so many great men in Florence to Finicio, but were attracted to him, both in person and in correspondence, associated to his Academy were leading statesmen, scholars & churchmen from all over Europe. The letters, provide four main clues: First, the love, which he extended to all who approach him. 2) The wisdom which enabled him to see so clearly into the nature of his correspondents and to touch on those points which could lead them to make the best use of their talents. 3) He seemed to understand clearly how the various activities of his correspondents related to the divine principle in Man and also to their function in the State. His Letters have a quality of timelessness so Finicio seems to be speaking to us as clearly today, as he spoke to his contemporaries in the 15th century Florence. 4) He imparted tranquility and strength, like his own, to those who listened to him. To Finicio, the visual arts were of special importance. Their function was to remind the soul of its origin in the divine world by creating, through art, resemblances to that world. It was largely through Finicio's insistence on the importance of the visual arts that the painter's position in Florentine society was raised nearer to that of the poet than that of the carpenter where it had previously been. Directly inspired by Finicio, were the great Renaissance artists Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Vasari, Botticelli, Raphael, Titian and many others were under his influence and inspiration.
Good morning all,
it is Saturday morning here.
A very nice post Maria, Ficinos letters are absolutely wonderful to read. I think there may be 7 or 8 volumes, I have vols 1 and 2.
They have been translated from the Latin by members of the School of Economic Science, London. Of course you know of the school because of Hector.
Ficino speaks so well of every man, sees the good in all, and the language is just beautiful.
In 2006 I spent a couple of weeks in Florence with same friends in an apartment, we visited The Medici Villa of Careggi. It is not open generally to the public, but you can write beforehand and get an appointment to visit.
Lorenzo was born nearby and the Medici family had given a house nearby to Ficino. So this was a country place of relaxation .. but it was used for meetings of the Platonic Academia. We were also fortunate enough to visit the actual room where these great humanists had their meetings.
Florence is a wonderful place .. full of beautiful art, and as you so rightly say is of special importance .. in reminding the soul of it's divine nature.
That is also as it is said to be the function of the great works of Mozart and Beethoven.
dougie, each to his own of course,
we all see things differently, and that is perfectly fine the way it is. You said, "... Brian Clough existed, God didn't".
And if you see what was said in Marias post, "knowledge of himself, that is, knowledge of the divine and immortal principle within him."
Within him ..and within all of us .. that is who I see God as, not the transient body that we think exists.
"The divine and immortal principle "within man.Frankly I dont understand what that means,and i suggest the guy who wrote it didnt understand either.
Its gobbledygook in my humble opinion.Philosophysing(i suspect its spelt wrongly)is all well and good,but somewhere along the line it has to be tempered with a little reality.Prose isnt enough.
Where is the evidence regarding this divine and immortal principle that exists within us?Is it all in the mind? self deception?The belief that mankinds existence has some purpose? That we are somehow"better" than the inhabitants of the animal kingdom and that therefore special rules apply to us?
History and mankind have created gods by the dozen,religions by the dozen,philosophies by the dozen, each god each religion each philosophy has its devoted followers.Each see things that others cant,none is any more relevant than the other,except of course for the "believers".
If ,and its a big f,there is some higher principle involved then mankind has no knowledge of it..indeed how could it? Putting this eternal jigsaw together,and forming the main picture when you only have 3 out of the billion jugsaw pieces needed is futile...it becomes a kinda pic n mix solution,as all religions are.
I was reading recently about a burmese hill tribe,who wash only twice in their lives,once at birth -once at death..the reason? evil dwells in water...how do they know? cos THEIR god told them.silly? maybe? but no more siller than some religious beliefs and ceremonies we educated and modern westerners believe in and practice.
As for souls....well i remember the late kenneth williams taking part in a tv panel discussion about religion reincasrnation and assorted issues.....the qustion arose regarding the human soul,transmigration of souls, evolution of souls etc.....and williams in his eloquent and inimitable way responded by saying "AAAAAH!..Souls!" that says it all for me im afraid.
Dougie,
You are right about religions these don't lead anywhere except to a cul-de-sac and nothing to do with God, most are franchidising shops designed to extract money from the believers who are afraid to die.
This divine immortal principle that exists within us, is life itself. The body is just a shell a bit like the wrapper of a sweet, the sweet is the soul, once that is gone, your body dies but not your soul, that is immortal. Its not just men that are animated by this speck of life, everything in the natural world is, but it keeps changing, nothing stays still, even the gallaxies are moving every day at great speed, so the body turns into ash but from the ashes the plants find nourishment and its a continuous never ending cycle of life and death and back to life in another shape again.
I see....what about the persons remains,after cremation,that stays forever in a glass jar....what about jeremy benthams stuffed body that rests behind a glass window frame..i forget where exactly..its been there for roughly a couple of centuries..that aint fertilizing anything....what you mean is i guess renewable energy,as in recycling.you are not campaigning for new recycling taxes i hope.I know what the liberal party tends to be like.While i get your drift about the "renewing" issue..its not divine,no more than a duck farting in church is divine....immortal? hmmm i guress you could argue that..up to a point.you could argue that indeed we have no birthdate either..we were always there,we just hadnt metamorphised (is that the word?) from a burnt oak tree to a human being until we "born." This esotoric(or esoteric.or watever) approach to things is ok in its own right if one is a hindu fakir and has bugger all else to all day but find complicated reasons for the most mundane things.But the "fact" that I ,one bright sunny day might,instead of being a racist cynic,might instead be an integral part of the inner machinery of someone elses washing machine interests me not one jot.
Ive had a thought-but no ill keep it to myself...cos when i say what i think i usually end up sounding abrasive..and its not my intention to do so.....unless im on casebook of course.when i can say things like scimitars at sundown..or....sabres at sunrise...its guarranteed to get someones back up.Its 7.50 a.m im waffling...hope you can make sense of all this..its not exactly ernest hemingway territory....as maria knows ive given up the fags..its been 4 days 3 hours and 21 minutes ..and at present im gnawing at my elbow to get some relief from my nicotine addiction...me smoking hand thinks its been amputated...my lungs are protesting vehemently,my lips keep searching for that which it thinks should be between them...my head hurts.....my dreams have been so very very vivid....images of tobbacco plantations,cigaretter wholesalers ,tobbacco smugglers,bonfires,dflash across my mind...if i can only get through another 10 seconds without a fag ill survive....if only 1....
may your god go with you
Hi Maria, Victoria and Dougie
One doesn't have to be immortal or divine for life to have a meaning. The meaning for each individual is the meaning the individual creates, through self-transcendence.
Self-transcendence isn't just for artists, philosophers and scientists. Most so-called ordinary people are capable of it. Today, Remembrance Day, we had the annual tribute to ordinary people who became extraordinary. And on the other channel? Coronation Street.
Man and Superman. Self-transcendence versus "Ee chuck, I'm glad I caught you before you closed. I've run out of spaghetti. Have you heard? Fred and Gloria are an item. Oh, and Doreen's expecting. Wonder who the father is? Put it on the slate. Must dash. Alf's like a bear with a sore head if he doesn't get his spaghetti. Ta-ra!"
I think of it in terms of music. Beethoven's music is the noble individual always striving, refusing to be beaten. Amadeus is, so to speak, what he is striving for - for ever out of reach. And our everyday lives? Thnk of the Eurovision Song Contest. For ever and ever. Crap without end. Amen.
Man doesn't have to be a worm of 70 summers crawling on the ground.
Dougie .. so that was you on casebook, in disguise?
How very clever ...
I hope you resisted those urges for another cigarette, I imagine the pain would have got much worse before the turning point, back to bearable.
On the tv here we have been having more graphic anti smoking ads .. this time telling us that virtually everyone who smokes has emphasema .. that is scary!
I have a good friend who has been a long term smoker, whom I would love to see give them up.
Be strong and determined dougie, the cravings will pass without a doubt .. it may keep you out of that recycling bin for a bit longer if you do.
Good morning all,
Victoria,
Indeed! the site of Ficino's Academy at Careggi became a place of pilgrimage both during his life and after his death. Marcilio Ficino seemed to understand the principles of every Art and to embody in himself the Renaissance ideal of the complete Man. He was first of all a philosopher, but he was also a scholar, a doctor, a musician and priest. As a scholar, apart from his original works, he translated into Latin the whole of Plato and many of the classical writings in the same tradition. This he did at amazing speed and so well, that his translations remained the standard editions until those published in national languages in the 19th century. As a doctor, his skill was such that many, including the Medici preferred to call upon his services before any other's. In the tradition of Hippocrates he never took a fee. As a musician his main object was to arouse devotion, and in this, his contemporaries recognised him as extra-ordinarily effective. Singing his Orphic Hymns to the lyre, Ficino enthralled Bishop Campano who was traveling through Florence. In a letter Campano says: 'it was as if curly-headed Apollo took up the lyre of Marsilio Ficino and fell victim to his own song. Frenzy arises. His eyes catch fire... and he discovers music which he never learnt.'
Dougie,
The person's remains after cremation that is just the wrapper, your body is just the wrapper of your soul. When you die, your soul is liberated and goes free.
The body enables the soul to do tangible things on earth. In other words, the body is the vehicle of the soul, once your soul lives the body, the body is trash, this is not you anymore, you have gone.
The body is our animal side which the mind must dominate like a rider dominates his horse, the soul is the rider, it has conscious, it tells you what is right or wrong. The body is the animal that you must TAME. This is why if it has cravings to smoke, you can say No, I don't want to give you cigarretes even if you do a tantrum, No, no even if you start shaking I won't give you one because its bad for you.
So you have been dabling at Nut-casebook then. How are the nuts doing ? No doubt they are as unpleasant as ever. I went to take a look and I see that they have put five stars on Stephen Powell's book. You know, you only get stars if something is really excellent, to my surprise, or maybe not, the two irritating women there were slating the book as rubbish even before it has been published and given it FIVE stars. I think the five stars are there so that it attracts people to look at this book, so that the main instigator or jailer of that jail-place can show she was a whipping boy that every so often, she can come and whip and laugh at, because she knows she is the owner of the jail and can say all kind nasty things unchallenged and no one dares to defend the injustice because they can be banned or can be insulted by this innane being. Do you notice how many hundreds of names they have at nut-casebook? yet only the same handful boring very few, dare to write anything for fear of having their heads bitten off by the main praying mantis.
I know nothing of Steve Powell or his book..other than Victoria is an acquaintance of his.I find it preposterous that anyone can say his book is rubbish if they havent read it..but also,its equally as preposterous to give it 5 stars either if you havent read it.If i was a coon id say "me no comprende"..its astonishing the nonsense spoken,the prejudice that shows its face at every opportunity on there,and the total inanity of some of the conversations that take place there.....in my opinion.I personally have no interest in any ripper books ..the subject has been done to death..i accepted the obvious years ago that Druitt was the culprit..he stands out like a sore thumb..but enough of that.Exactly what type pof person spends the majority of their waking hours on that,or indeed,any other forum,as some appear to do,defeats me. I mean just how many times can one say the same thing without drowning in a sea of utter triviality....they remind me of the locals up here,go beyond the weather in any conversation..and you are buggered!
As for the soul maria..prove its existence-you cant-no one can.so therefore it must remain only a belief..nothing more,nothing less.Its equally as silly to say there is a soul as to say there isnt.....I remember some years ago when the church,not sure if was the catholic or c of e had a conference to discuss and decide whether animals had souls..what a pointless discudssion!they never discussed wether humans did..oh no! that wasnt up for argument..to them anyway! welol they came to the conclusion,prob after 3 weeks of boozing and feasting ,and no doubt farting surreptitiously under the table,that no!animals didnt have souls after all.no doubt God sat in heaven and thanked the bishops,cardinals and church bum boys for their support.Its difficult to know whether to laugh or cry at the absurdity of it all.
Hello all,
nice post dougie, but you didn't mention if you had succumbed to temptation .. probably yes. The wonderful thing though is that you can just try again.
As for proving that the soul exists .. you are right dougie in that no-one can just show you total proof 'on a plate' as it were.
But it can be proven to oneself, only if one really desires it above all else, you cannot see it ..only become one with it.
"Be still and know that I am God" .. means a deep state of meditation where there is no thought whatsoever, that is where you will truly know.
And just on the way, you can see glimpses .. and know for yourself that you are indeed not this mortal body .. and that there is much more to life, than what we see.
Every creature has a soul ... so the ancients tell us, but only the human being has the ability to look within and find himself.
Whether we are interested or not, it matters not .. but it is true, of that I have no doubt. I think it is good to keep an open mind about all things .. if you close yourself off, you will never 'hear' anything new or real.
Did I succumb ? no not yet...will I? its distinctly possible.Its interesting how the mind tries to outflank one...thoughts like "well that guy over there is smoking,hes been unemployed for years,Im working -and im denying myself a fag" of course the one issue has nothing to do with the other.....the subconscious doesnt always work in tandem with the conscious mind..in fact i suspect it rarely does.And there is the "rub" as far as im concerned.The subconscious can conjure up all sorts of hallucinations,physical as well as mental......what of the members of the male sex who have phantom pregnancies? have all the symptons,even to enlarged stomachs,morning sickness,supposedly cos they are responding with sympathy to their wives pregnancy....its well known that our subconscious is the most powerful..not our conscious mind.There is where our phobias lurk,our oirrational habits ,our complexes ,and of course our beliefs. real or unreal? whos to say? is anything genuine at all,or is everything only a figment of our imaginations?...who was it who wrote that the planet earth might just be a speck of dirt under a giants thumbnail? are all things relative? or is nothing relative? is everything merely as we perceive it to be? All these questions and more will be answered at the upcoming Labour party conference,guest speakers include,members of the Band of the Waldorf Astoria,Joseph Stalins great grandson,the president of the flat earth society,and it is hoped Jesus Christ himself(though this is yet to be confirmed)....the conference starts at 8 p.m sharp-the trouble starts at 8.10 p.m.
Ive found recently i have great trouble speaking in any other manner than tongue in cheek,i apologise......its hard to take anything seriously at times..and i believe im going thro such a period....
meanwhile I think ill just chill out a little with the homies in da hood man, dey ho....dey ho...daylight come and me wanna go ome..hey mr ferrymam gimme a banana......
on a more serious note,though doubtless no-one will believe me..i did at a young age ,around 8..have an out of the body expereince..very vivid even now if i care to recall...slipped and fell in a lake.....i doubt wether the water (at the point i fell in) was any deeper than perhaps a foot) i actually watched myself falling in...and watched as my brother dragged me out..but to me while its fascinating ,the most odd feature of it was, the fact that i watched as an uninterested observer..not as me....trick of the mind probabley..i dunno....
Excellent going dougie .. the longer that you stay 'un-sucumbed' the easier it will be, speaking from one who has never had to give up smoking. But on other things .. it does work and get better .. eventually.
As far as I know we only 'live' in a fraction of the conscious mind, mostly on the surface, and know nothing about what is going on in our subconscious mind. Tendencies and desires, past experiences are held in the subconscious and they rise to colour the situations that we face now. Thoughts and feelings, ideas etc in our conscious mind often change like the wind .. the mind works between the poles of opposites.
By becoming quiet inside, relatively free from thought, one can access a deeper level of the conscious mind, find peace and greater clarity.
Your story of the out of body experience is great .. just how it is .. watching as an 'uninterested observer' No trick of the mind, as it would not have stayed with you for all this time I feel.
When you experience these things it makes you realise that what you are looking at .. cannot be myself. In eastern thought they use the statement .. 'that you cannot be what you observe'.
just been reading a copy of "rural rides" (no rude comments please) by william cobbett published (originally) in 1830....my word! though it is mainly an account of cobbetts journeys through the south east of england and the farming communities and the decline in farmers,farmworkers tenants ability to earn enough to make ends meet..its also a tale of the deceit,selfishness and highway robbery practised by politicians,land owners,royal families and perhaps not surprisingly our famed and well loved instititution THE CHURCH!..OH wat a surprise that was! the politicians ,royal family and land owners one would expect that level of chicanery from,but to think that the pious,god fearing,loving,caring,holier than thou,fire and brimstone mob would sink equally as low in their behaviour fair astounds me....i think ill have to go lie down and recover my composure..its been such a shock to me you see,I cant believe it! whatever next? the way things are going we will soon be hearing reports of vicars molesting young boys,priests being protected by their paedophile masters, church organists with their hand in the petty cash jar and such like....lets stop the rot now before it gets out of hand!
Hi Dougie
Well the Church of England always was part of the Establishment and still is. It's just that recently they've worked out that if they join up with the top tenth in our society and funnel money to the bottom tenth, they'll have the satisfaction of having been "compassionate" while the middle 8 tenths pay for it (because the Church of England and the top tenth sure ain't going to pay for it).
Very interesting thought provoking posts about the soul and how... we got to talk about the church. I'm really surprised that Dougie didn't know how the church really works. In the old days and for that matter these days as well. The church inescrupulously gets money from those who are afraid to die. Many of the church lands were acquired from those believers who thought they would go to heaven if they left all their properties to the church as though God needs such possessions to live. How else do you think they got rich ? The catholic church has its own bank, who can forget about Roberto Calvi? He was found hanged from Black-friars bridge in London. Killed by the maffia. Has anyone read about the Pope being interested in extra-terrestrial beings ? there was an article I half read about joining the Anglican Church with the Catholic church. A canonical merger. Just like big corporations like the banks or companies do. What next ?
So true Maria ...
that much of church monies coming from people thinking it is a passport to heaven.
Little do they realise that it is only 'selfish' thinking on their own part .. hoping for a 'business deal'.
More likely a deal with the devil.
To be able to do something with no thought of reward .. is more likely a passport to somewhere better.
On a practical note, their spare money may have found better use in the hands of a worthwhile charity.
The Pope and extra terrestial beings!! .. any more on that Maria?
And changing the subject a bit,
any chance of a photo of the beautiful castle in Ireland?
Victoria,
Give the money to charity instead? They have become another cash eating monster,the majority goes to the people who run the charities.Over here we have had lifeboat disaster charity collections ,very little of which actually goes to the families affected,if any does the dept of social security soon get their claws into it.....charities today,in my opinion have become another racket.
Maria,I well understand how the church works.But although the church received money from gullible individuals who wanted to book their place in heaven,they also received lotsa cash in tithes,taxes and levies from tenants of land that the church laid claim to.Also in the period the afore mentioned book related to,the church was granted 10% of the produce any farmer received from his labour.....in the year 1830 (or was it 1811) the church received in total £11,000,000 in tithes rents levies etc and contributed (not voluntarily ,it ewwas an obligation) £3,ooo,ooo to the parishes for poor (i.e building maintaining workhouses,relief for the poor,whos poverty in the first place was partially caused by the church to begin with)
The church complained bitterly that the £3,000,000 was far too much to have to pay out and couldnt be sustained by the church coffers.
If religion had never been manufactured,if priests had never existed,if the vatican instead of being feted and worshipped,used to house those who live in the streets...if the churches wealth had been used to do some good,instead of what we have seen.....what a better world this might have been!
How many millions crucified,garrotted,burnt,hanged,broken on the wheel,killed in religious wars thro trhe centuries?all in the name of goodness and mercy and love and honour and obedience to a wise kind merciful creature who sits up there looking over and protecting his children.!
If you believe the myth that religion has thrust upon us-then my friend you will indeed believe almost anything!
One funny thing about the eye of the needle, is that in medieval times rich people would wait till they were dying and drawing their last breath, and then give all their money to the church. Hence they would die poor and be allowed into heaven. The funny thing was, a few of them recovered at the last moment....only to find themselves destitute.
Robert,
Did the church give those poor unfortunate wretches their cash back,or maybe a small rebate even? or did they merely intone solemnly "The Lord giveth ...and the Lord taketh away"?
To me the message is clear,the church Elders didnt believe in the slightest that which they foisted upon everyone else.i.e The existence of God..if they had of done they would not have acted in the ways they did.The practice hasnt altered.....but the text,unfortunately remains....
Hi Dougie
Well there have been clerics who preferred to be burnt to death rather than recant. That doesn't show that what they believed was true, of course - but it does suggest that they believed it.
I think that in a way, it's that kind of either/or choice that sometimes reveals just what a person really does believe. And of course for every priest who did choose death, there were a hundred who settled for conformity.
Hi Victoria, Robert and Dougie,
About the church, listen to this claptrap: Monsignor Corrado Balducci, a demonology consultant to the Vatican and insider close to the Pope has stated publicly that extra-terrestrials are real.
"The existence of other inhabited planets is highly probable. Their existence might very well be correlated with the Salvation through Christ" stated Balducci. Dr. Bruce Goldber, author of Egypt: An extra-terrestrial & time traveler from our future utilize extra-terrestrials as part of their team when traveling back in time to ancient Egypt, for example.
Time travelers, along with ETs, are responsible for some of the reported UFO abductions" declares Goldberg. He further reports that these time travelers main purpose is to accelerate our spiritual growth.
Dr. Goldberg's book shows the reader hot to contact these visitors from 1,000 to 3,000 years in our future, and how to prevent an abduction. Dr. Goldberg has appeared in Oprah, Jerry Springer, Montel, CBS News, NBC, FOX, The History channel etc. the website:
http://www.drbrucegoldberg.com
Yes, Dougie, the charities is another racket. The cat charity for example, lost ONE MILLION pounds by investing the money in a bank in Iceland that went bust! and the charity lost all the money but it beggars belief.. what was that money doing in an icelandic bank the first place? when it was supposed to be helping the cats. I don't give a cent to charities these days as my eyes were opened to this racket and I keep the pen they always send in the hope that you send them money.
The church is treading on thin ice if it's going to start talking about time travellers from the future. Things such as turning water into wine, raising the dead and giving sight to the blind are just the kinds of things one might expect a superlatively advanced time traveller to be able to do.
I thought it was supposed to be Jesus of Galilee not Jesus of Gallifrey.
Ha,ha,ha, I should remember that Robert. Jesus of Gallyfree. I think the church is already paving the way for the eventual find of other life outside the earth, its either that, or this doctor has seen too many DR. WHO episodes on television he will soon be telling us, is he is a Time Lord !
These monsignors,and church members should stick to what they do best...feeding bullshit to the congregations....biblical b.s as opposed to b.s of the time travelling kind.
spiritual growth-humbug!
salvation through christ-superstitious nonsense!
extra terrestials? presumabley they would all become practising catholics,kiss the popes arse every sunday....and naturally enough vote Labour?
Christian apologist CS Lewis posed the problem of a billion crucifixions on a billion planets and thought it a bit hard to swallow. I can't remember how he wriggled out of it. I think he waffled.
Yes, the time travel thing is silly. What would that do to the Ascension? Jesus says "Beam me up, Scotty"?
Dougie and Robert,
Get this... the other thing happening is that the Catholic Church and the Anglican church are going to merge into one ! Pressumably business is not going too well. I know that over here where I live, lots of chappels have been sold and converted into normal houses. Why? because less and less people are believing in this Christian religion and they have stopped going to church altogether, so rather than lose money, the church has sold their chappels and the buyers have turned them into dwellings.
Ha,ha,ha, Robert that is so funny, funny ! Beam me up Scotty. Very witty. I missed reading your post when I did my last entry. The word Beam takes another dimension !
The Church of England seems to have been feminised. I believe that in many churches, women outnumber men in the congregation by quite a large margin, even more so in the choirs.
I put this down to the current slushy philosophy of the church which has ekmbraced the full political correctness contrick. There are some churches now where people are expected to shake hands at a certain point in the service, even hug each other.
Yuk!
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