Oh I was so exited when I opened her letter with her crest on the envelope and her letter-head.
Victoria, I imagine you would like to know what her Majesty had to say, so without much ado I will write down the content of her letter.
2nd July, 2009
Dear Mrs. Birchwood
The Queen has asked me to thank you for your recent letter expressing
your concern that Her Majesty did not receive an invitation to attend the
D-Day sixty fifth anniversary celebrations in France.
The Queen has received a number of letters on this subject and I have
been instructed to forward your letter to the Right Honourable David
Miliband, MP, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs,
so that your approach to Her Majesty may be known.
In the meantime, I am to thank you, once again, for taking the time and
trouble to write as you did, letting The Queen know of your views.
Her Majesty was grateful for your kind words of support and loyalty.
Yours sincerely,
Mrs. Sonia Bonici
Senior Correspondence Officer
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Well, Maria, that's good. Of course, the Queen can't openly come out and say "I agree, they should have invited me," but I think that last sentence gives a clue to what she thinks about the matter.
I think I might write to her myself :
Dear Maj
Just a line to let you know that if you have any scotch eggs left over from those banquets, they'll find a welcoming home with me.
Hee, hee.
Yeap that last sentence gives a clue as to how her Majesty feels about it and she has asked her Senior Correspondence Officer to forward my letter to David Milliband to let them know how we feel. I don't express myself well about politicians, so maybe I will end up in some sort of black list.
But... I am not alone in feeling the way I do, as she mentions they have received letters with the same sentiment as mine. That is nice to know. that I'm not alone and that other people have expressed the same outrage. Well, the next thing that no doubt will happen now, is that the Secretary of State David Milliband will write to me explaining their actions and then I can personally write back to tell him exactly what I think about his thick boss, (the Prime Minister) who should have known better in not attending and declining an invitation to this farce. It was not his place to be there and he should not have gone in protest.
Well, personally I don't want to see any politicians besmirching such an occasion. I don't want to see them at the Cenotaph either.
Robert
Actually, I did mention that too. I pinched some of your comments and included them in my letter, so in a sense you wrote that letter too ! Except that I hand-wrote it and signed it. So I think your views were the ones which prompted her Majesty to send it over to the Secretary of State of TCW. So if they finally take the politicians away from the proceedings, by proxy you have helped to do that.- See how the British way of writing letters can be more effective than making rainy demonstrations in the street ? which will only give you a cold or worst being hit with a large baton by the police and have your name on the terrorist list ! Ha,ha,ha,ha.
Oh yes, if I had to choose I would much rather write a letter than demonstrate. Mind you, demonstrations aren't so bad if you get paid. I was thinking I might carry a placard reading "Down with politicians" and the other side of it saying "Visit Fred's Cafe for the best bangers and mash in town." Then I'd get a few quid from Fred.
Robert, I like that.
There is a fellow who lives in a tent protesting in front of the Houses of Parliament with all kinds of placards. Wimpy Tony Blair passed a law prohibiting people to demonstrate in front of the Houses of Parliament only so that he could not see him there every time he went to work. This lone demonstrator has had movies done about his lone protest and even though he doesn't have a fix address, he receives hundreds of letters from around the world which are addressed simply: Demostrator's tent in front of the Houses of Parliament and the post-man brings him all his worldwide correspondence there. He is now a fixture in that place and he says he won't move his protest until the wars in the Middle East are abandoned.
I seem to remember that when Tony Blair was receiving a visit from some Chinese leaders, there were protests about Tibet. However, the protesters found themselves kept at a safe distance behind some hoardings which appeared miraculously at just the right time. Hence the Chinese leaders were not "embarrassed" by the sight of the demonstrators.
hello all.
Im not so sure that our own government wasnt involved in the exclusion of the queen...Labour has always had anti-monarchist leanings,and of course much is discussed behind closed doors.
The real insult was towards the thousands of british troops who gave their lives on d-day.Though of course,having said that the allied landings were responsible for as many french civilian deaths as german deaths.We have never been forgiven,rightly or wrongly.
Ive never had much time for the cult of "Royalty" to be honest,but feel that the queen,as the queen mother before are/were the only members of that clan with dignity.....the rest are hare-brained,arrogant and not worth one penny piece of public funds.Princess Diana was a prime example..A high class tart in my opinion.
Protest i think is an effective weapon,it can change things for the good....come to that for the worse as well.How much longer the british public will have the right of public protest im not sure.
On a slightly different tack ,i was looking through some BNP propoganda on the internet,and have got to say ,i couldnt find much to argue about with what was written.....my next vote will go to either the torys or BNP, at present im 50-50 but leaning marginally to the british national party......a few thugs there tis true...but then there are many sluggish and obnoxious characters in the major parties too...so its not too much of an obstacle for me.
If I wrote a letter to the queen I think i would say bluntly "You are the head of state of this country,get up off your arse,forget about Ascot and similar trivia and grab these politicians by the scruff of their necks and INSIST on honesty in public and political life...insist on standards ethics and principles...everyone knows we live in a corrupted,unprincipled,"let the devil take the hindmost" world...Use your position and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!"
yours cloyingly,
your loyal ,trustworthy and ever loyal subject
dougie (ex casebook,ex jtr forums,and head of the mormon church in bala north wales(present congregation 2 welsh perverts,a macedonian hill farmer,a somalian transvestite and a rather scruffy sheep dog named rupert 111.
Hi Robert & Dougie
Well, I'm unsure whether our government had anything to do with the exclusion of the Queen from the solemn ceremony because I noticed that on every grave they had placed only French & American flags, excluding the British flags. Besides that, an American actor who had nothing to do with D-Day and just acted in the film " Saving Private Ryan " was invited ! but not our Queen, who actually served as a mechanic during the war. That for me, is a slap on the face, to see all those three politicians there, re-writing history a la Hollywood style and that we know they were not even in the war. The fact that Gordon Brown was rightfully booh booh by the veterans, shows that they too, did not want him there. Dougie, watch your language, since you never know if her Majesty might be reading your post!
I think the public has to devise another kind of effective protest, since its really not possible nowadays to have a peaceful demonstration without having the gorillas with their truncheons, the water cannons and also tear gas to attack the public. You only have to see what is happening in Iran and in Honduras, where the governments can quell a peaceful demonstration by brutal means when all the public is doing, is demanding their democratic rights and I am getting very desilusioned to see that the will of the people is no longer respected.
Hi Maria,
Im not sure her majesty would be unduly worried about the word arse lol..sure she has heard it before.My point was The Queen has a moral duty to speak out about whats happening to this country...forget protocol,the public would respect a bit of plain speaking from someone-anyone,and who better to hear it from?The royal family doesnt come from super human stock.....the reason the royal family holds the position they do is because their forefathers were bigger rogues than anyone else centuries ago..its really as simple as that.
Issues you mentioned Iran and honduras-there are many more-is an issue for the population of those countries....they have to make their own societies..just as we in britain have over the centuries....change is never bloodless.Why should the west help them? The middle eastern countries in particular have always bitten the hand that feeds them...if they have the society they have,then its because its no better than the society they deserve.If these people are simple enough to believe the religious nonsense they are fed with then its their own fault.....
Another thing about public demonstrations Maria,,,lots of fair minded and sensible people attend demonstrations regarding one particular issue or another..trouble is they attract others ,who have no interest whatso-ever in the issue,but see it as an opportinity to wreak mayhem in support of their own particular cause.....communists are famed for that behaviour......
One doesnt need a water cannon or a truncheon to cower the population,some countries,like ours ,acheive that by merely using a fountain pen.The population of britain ,for instance is gutless,quietly and consistently suffering the indignities heaped upon them by this politically correct and odious government presently in office....the odd squeak of protest is occasionally heard,but nothing meaningful.Meanwhile the highest in society are silent. In fact the silence from that quarter is deafening.Instead bogus issues are brought up,to create yet another smokescreen,to divert peoples attention from whats really happening in britain today.....the introduction of a multi cultural quagmire....with the native briton firmly entrenched at the bottom of the heap,while ethnic minorities are answerable to no-one,and superior to all.....to hell with iran ,iraq, the palestinian scum and all these other so called oppressed peoples....lets have some thought and some action devoted to this country and its people.
Hi Maria and Dougie
I have a method of protesting which is very quiet and entirely legal. It consists of making a cup of tea! Oh, and having a cigarette. Then I make another cup of tea, and have another cigarette.....I do this every polling night. Whether it's a general election, a local election, a mayoral election or a Euro election, there I am having a cup of tea and smoking a cigarette. But not enough people join me in my protest, for I always find that millions of people have walked up the road and cast their votes. Afterwards, of course, they complain that they have elected crooks. But whose fault is that?
So my protest slogan would be, "Have a cup of tea."
Hi Dougie & Robert,
Well, if you would recall, her Majesty summoned Gordon Brown to the Palace and told him in no uncertain way to sort out the expenses scandal. You will find that she was as concern about it as the public was, this is why it was debated in the House of Parliament and this is why a lot of the MPs were sacked. Also you must remember that most of the powers of the Monarchy have gone to the House of Commons and the Lords in Parliament and even though the Queen has considerable influence, the Monarch does not have the power to sack them or make laws. She can dissolve Parliament and in case of a hung parliament, she can also choose who will form a government. In fact, the Queen is not even allowed to vote ! this is a privilege just for us, the people.
About the situation in Honduras, President Zelaya was elected democratically by the people and when he sought a referendum from his people with the question of whether it was possible for him to run a second term in office. The militars told him not to do this referendum but President Zelaya still wanted to go ahead with his plans but just before he could do it, the army broke into his house in the middle of the night and kidnapped him still wearing his pyamas. He woke up with two machine guns pointing on each temple of his head and another two machine guns touching his chest, ten soldiers put him in a cell and shortly after he was bound in a military plane, landing him in Costa Rica, from there he was immediately invited to Nicaragua for an extraordinary meeting with all the members of Organization of American States ( OAS ) where they unanimously declared the new regime who staged the coup d'etat illegal and inconstitutional and that none of OAS States this includes the U.S. would not recognize the new regime, also sending the message to re-instate President Manuel Zelaya immediatelly back into office and if they failed to do this, then Honduras would be kicked out of the Organization of American States. After this, the deposed President Zelaya flew to New York to addressed the United Nations who also gave him all their support. The European Union recalled all their Ambassadors back in protest and also warned the usurpers to re-instate President Zelaya back to power. In the meantime, President Zelaya said he would be flying back to Honduras but the coup plotter replied that if he set foot in Honduras, the president would be arrested on arrival. President Zelaya told his people to wait for him at the airport because he would arrive today. I just heard that his plane was not allowed to land in Honduras and so the plane is circling around without being able to land, in the meantime, an enormous crowd of people ( a few miles long ) are peacefully walking towards the airport to greet their president back and the army is simply backing off without doing anything to prevent them from congrating at the airport. Whislt the Nicaraguan army who is supporting the deposed President has surroounded the Honduran border with their soldiers. So now... the people who have staged this coup d'atet are trying to be more conceliatory in tone, without giving any concessions at all. The drama is still unfolding and there is the strong possibility that El Salvador will also send their troops to close the other border too. Guatemala as also willing to close the northern side of the border whilst Cuba can also block the ports of Honduras from their Caribbean side and not allowing anything to get into the country. once they find themselves completely surrounded, by these means they will be able to finally re-instate President Zelaya again. Its very exciting and dramatic to watch as things are happing every minute.
The latest on the Honduran crisis, that I have described above, is that the ousted President of Honduras tried to land in Tegucigalpa, the capital of Honduras accompanied by the President of Argentina and other members of the Organization of American States but the coup d'atet usurpers sent over a military plane and a helicopter to stop the presidential plane from landing by scrambling it, plus, they also placed a military truck in the middle of the run-way to block the air-strip. The Presidential plane circled for four hours in the air, unable to land in Honduras. The president was talking from the plane to the journalists telling them exactly what their problems were to make the landing, he also said that if he had a parachute he would jump and land in his homeland that way. In the meantime, the army turned against the people and killed a 10 year old boy by shooting him on the head, the pictures showed his distraught mother screaming as the boy is lifted dead from the floor and you can see his brains scattered on the blood soaked floor. There has been more wounded people and the presidential airplane had to turn back and went to the neighbouring country of El Salvador, where the ousted Honduran President is expected to make yet another bid to get into his homeland, by other means. So it is still uncertain how this other means are. The usurpurs of power declared an early curfew yesterday (Sunday) to send the demonstrators home early. The drama continues...
Maria, perhaps one point worth making is, if all the other countries were like Costa Rica, and had no army, there'd be no way of getting rid of these people.
Robert you are quite right and have hit it right in the nail. The U.S. is responsible for having installed those armies there so that they can have better control the people of those small countries by force. It is very telling that whilst all the countries from the European Union have quite rightly withdrawn their respective ambassadors from Honduras as a signal that they consider the coup illegal; except the U.S. it shows you that this is an indication that even though Obama is saying he is horrified by the coup, covertly... the U.S. is behind the coup. Nothing happens in that hemisphere unless the U.S. approves it and this is why the coup perpetrators are feeling so strong in doing what they are doing against the world opinion.
Well maria..america cabn do nothing right can it? If it criticise the situation but does nothing....then its because the created the situation...if on the other hand America critices and sends troops in to combat the situation ,then its another example of american aggressive imperialism.
El salvador,guatemala,cuba, not to mention honduras are all tin pot dictatorships hiding under a cloak of so called democracy,which of course is nothing of the sort. Coups and counter coups are nothing unusual for most of those countries..its a way of life, let them kill each other off..its by far the best way.....every time the west goes into places like this,in the interests of fair play and whatever,we end up taking the blame and being accused of nefarious activities for personal gains.
Respectfully maria I really dont know why uou and others hate america so much.....its not a perfect society ..not by a mile..but the good america has done far outweighs the bad....without them we would prob all be worshipping the jackboot.
as regards the queen summoning brownie and having private words regarding expenses issue...she should have made a public statement condemning the abuse of privilege......mind you as her family are the biggest scroungers of all,it might be counter productive lol
Dougie, One question... why do you call the United States... America ?
I do not need to remind you that the OEA Means: Organization of AMERICAN Estates. Therefore, all those little countries are part of the American continent. Is that clear now ?
And NO. We do not want the Yankees to interfere in Latin American politics, the U.S. should not be selling them their weapons and their armouries nor sending their U.S. military advisors to create chaos and mayhem. In fact, these countries should not have any armies at all. Like it is the case in Costa Rica.
Hi Dougie
I must disagree with your view that the Queen should have made a public statement on MPs' expenses. It's vital to her position that she should NOT get involved in party poltics. Otherwise we might have, for instance, armed forces refusing to do this or do that because they don't like the Queen's politics - the sort of thing that's going on in Central America right now. By their loyalty to the Queen, the armed forces are pledged not to allow politics to influence them at all. This of course will only work if the Queen remains non-political.
Where she SHOULD have intervened, of course, concerns the EU. This is an issue which concerns the very freedom and independence of the United Kingdom. Without our right to make our own laws, there is no point in a Queen, a Government, a Parliament or a UK army.
Robert I have to agree with you about the Queen not making a public statement concerning the MP's expenses. She summoned Gordon Brown who had a dressing down and was told to sort it out. And you were right about the way she couldn't come out to answer my letter saying openly " I agree, they should have invited me " and Dougie I do not agree for you to say that the Queen is a scrounger, for starters, her majesty pays taxes and whatever she gets from the public purse, the taxes she pays, far exceed what she gets from the public purse. Her homes are not only hers but these are part of our British heritage as well, and as such, her castles may benefit just like any other estately properties by getting revenue from the people who visit her castles, for me going to Windsor Castle and seeing her Leonardo da Vinci drawing collection was a really wonderful treat for me, as well as walking around the marvelous rooms that she has opened to the public. I also think Prince Charles does very well with his Prince of Wales Trust which helps young people to start up business using their own initiative. It is very good to have a Monarchy rather than having to rely on coming and going politicians who do not stay long enough to face the consequences of their failed policies.
Maria, I think you are right that a monarchy CAN have a value. However, i think monarchies will only work where there is a tradition of monarchy, as in coutries like Britain. Monarchy is a funny thing. People could have a national debate about whether to have a monarchy. They could weigh up the pros and cons, and they might decide that the pros outweigh the cons and decide to have a monarchy. But in doing so, they have destroyed the monarchy! In other words, the attachment to monarchy must be emotional, not rational.
The same thing applies to a nation. Either you're a nation or you're not. Arguments and debate don't come into it.
Hi robert
The question is robert is the mps expenses merely a political scandal?in my view its far more than that,its nothing to do with ideologies,its to do with blatant dishonesty from her majestys government (and opposytion for that matter)...its not an isolated dishonest action from one politician,its a deliberate and organised fraud,perpetrated by the majority of mps in one fashion or another,and sanctioned from the very top in my view.There is no need for anyone,in my opinion,to be diplomatic about it,unless of course one has ones own snout in the public purse,which of course the royal family has ,and always has had.
The EU of course is just another gravy train,and heaven help us if we ever have total integration with the communities of europe,most of which we have very little in common with.hopefully that wont come in my lifetime.
Maria...America as in the united states of america is the only country (or collection of states) that are of any importance in the region(whatever you wish to call it)
You say NO "we" do not want america to interfere etc....but just who is "we"?..you might not be aware Maria but China is interfering in latin america ,and come to that Africa,far more than america is....dont you think there might be a connection?
We shouldnt sell them guns? maybe we shouldnt feed them either? maybe we shouldnt be the first to arrive when there is a natural calamity in those mentioned countries?maybe we shouldnt send them aid of any kind either?maybe we should let the chinese or the russians gain footholds....and build military bases there? when i say we ,of course i mean the americans......you remember the americans-thenasty,horrible,fat rich ,bunch of serial killing,greedy ,selfish,war mongers. As opposed to the apple pie muching-cherubic-clean living-saintly hondurans,mexicans,cubans,palestinians and last but not least of course-the peace -loving homely folk of iraq -iran and syria.....
blessed are the peacemakers-for they shall inherit the earth?
Dougie why are you saying WE whenever we talk about the U.S. are you from there ? For your information the U.S. did not lend any help when there was an earthquake in Central America recently but Japan did as well as Germany by sending whole mobile hospitals, the Mexicans sent rescue dogs, food and rescue nurses, the Chinese also helped too. The U.S. was too busy bombing Iraq to care about what happens to its very small neighbours.
Maria..if only things were that simple..tidy and neat.
to understand these situations you must look beyond the headlines.
Now you are criticising America because they DIDNT get involved?
Im at a loss to know what America would have to do (or not do) to please you.And people say Im racist! geez!
Are you an "armchair marxist -leninist" by anf chance? it would only take A slight change in the direction of the wind and we would hear you quoting from mao tse tung s little red (or blue) book.
Hello All .. so many comments to read here, I need a spare hour, so will catch up a bit later.
But ..
Maria, what exciting news .. I presume you opened the letter very carefully or neatly with a paper knife!
What a great thing to have for your future generations.
I'll have to start thinking about what I could write to Her Majesty about .. doubt she would be interested in 'nutcasebook'?
Hi Dougie
You're right, of course, that the MPs are fraudsters. The whole system's a fraud. But I think if the Queen got into the expenses scandal it would be just too much of a political minefield.
As for Europe, we're already in it right up to our necks. So it's already happened in your lifetime. Thanks to a combination of sheer funk, power worship and downright bribery, the MPs have managed to destroy in less than 40 years a country which people fought two world wars to defend. Then they ask me for my vote.
The best year for Parliament was 1834. That was the year it burned down.
Dougie
I cannot complain about the Russians during the Cuban crisis, if it wasn't for them, the U.S. would have invaded Cuba without respecting their sovereignty. NO I am not a communist because I do not think I could live in a communist society, besides, it is abundantly clear communism has not work in all the countries where there has been communism, it is clear that a central goverment dictating a large conglomerate of countries or states has not work. I am impartial, in the sense that I'm neither a communist nor a capitalist since both of those systems have now failed. For if you haven't seen the news lately, the U.S. is broke ! California is about to sign for bankrupcy and its already asking the federal government for a bail out. The state of California used to be the richest state of the Union and now... its practically bankrupt !
The failing of these two systems is because they meddle in the affairs of smaller countries in trying to establish supremacy in creating an empire and naturally enough, empires do fail in the end as history has shown us over and over again.
Robert, I missed reading your post. Well, Australia has our Queen as their Head of State as well as Canada and all the countries in the Common Wealth. Countries like Honduras, and the rest of Latin America had the King of Spain as their Head of State in the good all days. Now that those countries gained their independence for the worse, they are now beginning to appreciate the value of having a Monarchy. I have personally met the Queen of Spain in El Salvador during a brief visit she did to Central America more than 30 years ago and I found her to be a very calm and educated lady. I was impressed by her lack of airs and graces. Her son the Prince of Asturias was in Central America last month, he was invited for the inaguration of new President of El Salvador.
Hi Maria
But if the countries of the old Spanish empire wanted their independence, it must have been because they had become nations. And when that happens, the question of "should we stay with Spain because we like their monarchy" wouldn't arise. If you're a nation, you must be independent. If you're not independent, it's either because you've been occupied, or because you're no longer a nation.
Re Australia and Canada, I don't know how Victoria feels about this, but surely these countries too are nations - they may be friendly nations (except when it comes to cricket and rugby!) - but they are nations and so I wonder whether having a Head of State that is shared isn't a bit nonsensical.
Here we come to an interesting subject. I am told that the Australians will soon be having a referendum on whether to have a republic, and the result may well be Yes. Now, I have nothing against the Australians, indeed I like them. But if they choose to have a republic, it's no skin off my nose. what is interesting though is that the British have never been asked if they want their monarchy shared around in this way. We have no say. The Queen is Queen of something like 50 countries at the moment. No one asked us.
It's the same with Europe. Ireland gets TWO referendums on the Constitution (two, because they gave the "wrong" answer the first time). We don't get one.
Maria its funny how one side will say regarding The end of the spanish empire...."these countries gained their independence" while the other side says "t2hese countries threw off the yoke of tyranny" (spanish)
Robert, I dont believe we will be TOTALLY integrated with europe until there is one govt and of course one currency,and one army.and i guess one language (welsh of course) We are some way off from that at the moment,and long may it remain so.
As regards the royal family...well ive long wondered what it is they actually DO.
I wonder if the queen,and each and every branch of that family have 98 inch plasma tvs? and if they do who paid for them? I wonder who pays for the moats around the various castles they inhabit/own to be cleaned? I wonder who pays for their bath plugs,choccie bars and dare i say it....blue films I think we allready know the answer dont we?
Im not suggesting her "expenses" arent carefully logged, im not suggesting that she fiddles her expenses sheet-but then again she doesnt need to does she?.....people will say yes but its her job (being queen) .but its a job like no other....no merit needed-no qualifications needed -no application required-you are born into it....cant be sacked-cant be made redundant-cant be reprimanded...a job for life ,complete with all the trimmings,not only for herself but for a whole army of leeches...Is it really any less of a "fiddle" than the current scandal?.and again i ask if they are heads of state,-but have no voice,heads of state -,but have no REAL power,what is the point of their existence? is it merely pomp and circumstance or a reminder of our once "glorious" past ,when kings and queens had real power (however much they may have abused it)?
Hi Robert & Dougie,
Remember that the various independences in Latin America were in 1880's. I had not been born yet to give my opinion whether having an independence was a good or a bad move.. but having lived there AFTER the independence, and the trouble and strife that has happened since the Spanish Crown left Latin America, I would say I would have sooner not had an independence from Spain. You can see Greenland which is still owned by Denmark, Greenland has not sought an independence from Denmark consequently they are more protected from a U.S. invasion. Several Islands in the Caribbean like the Bermudas, still belong to the U.K. and they do not suffer meddling or invasion from the U.S. either. Mexico on the other hand, was invaded by the U.S. and the Mexican state of Texas, was stolen from Mexico by the U.S. in the battle of El Alamo. If Mexico had still remained part of Spain, then this would not have happened because the U.S. would have had to have been at war with Spain.
Robert, no. When all those countries sought their independence they were not nations, these were simply territories with borders which had different names but did not have the experience to become nations with a long history like most European and Asian cultures have. Latin America as well as the United States are nations of immigrants. So in the U.S. you can find millions of American Muslims as well as Jewish Americans the U.S. doesn't have a cohesive religion nor race to speak about, it is commonly known as a melting pot.
Hi Dougie
Re Europe, you've already got an EU government. Westminster is a glorified county council, consisting of lazy fools who nod through things they've never read. As long ago as the 80s and 90s, I used to laugh my head off when the Daily Mail would report "Thatcher returns in triumph" or "Defiant Major successfully fights Britain's corner." The so-called "triumphs" were the obtaining of "permission" for us to do things which we would have once upon a time done without asking anybody - before the politicians signed our independence away.
The single currency already applies to most EU countries and rest assured, we will be bounced into it at the first available opportunity - without one referendum, or even two.
The single army is I suppose already here, since the British army is just about the only one that does anything. How long it will be before full military integration will depend on how long the EU can wait before REALLY chucking its weight around.
As for a single language, I didn't say we were up to our becks in a European NATION - just that we were up to our necks in Europe. The language issue does give me some hope for the future, but whether Britain and the other countries of Europe will finally decide that they want to be proud, independent nations rather than an amorphous mob, is hidden in the future.
Re the Queen, I certainly think that her civil list settlements should be examined and ascertained to be fair. As regards what use she is, well I've already said that she's failed on the EU issue. Apart from that, though, I don't see her as being as dangerous as the MPs, whom I regard as a kind of cockroach infestation.
Dougie, It is well known that the Prince of Wales, as well as being a prince, he owns farms in Cornwall which by the way, are a model for organic farms in the country, the products from his farms you can buy them at the local supermarket, I recommend the biscuits, mmmm... delicious. Every year, the Royal holdings are published for the general public to see. Several castles are opened to the public and for only seven pounds, you can see Windsor Castle or Buckingman Palace which I still must visit when I am down in London next. Having been brought up in a country which doesn't have a Monarchy I can tell you that I appreciate the institution of Monarchy much more than Robert who has had it all his life. Why ? because he has taken it for granted. I know what a tremendous asset having the Monarchy is. It represents continuity, and a stable country, is worth its weight in gold ! I think having the Queen is a real treasure we must all value. The alternative is having the Gordon Browns and the Tony Blairs or the George Bushes of this world with inestability and wars for power.
Maria..prince charles ALSO goes around talking to plants!Rumour also has it that he almost (or maybe did) rape a male butler in the palace.He is also an adulterer,so lets not try to paint him as a paragon of virtue please.
As for his estates ,he might own them-but he didnt earn them,they were given to him and his forefathers....or rather taken by them.
Some years ago I worked for a few months in James palace,and the stories circulating there regarding the behaviour of certain members particularly a certain princess now diceased were remarkable...apparently this princess in particular would roam around the apartments late at night,stark naked,drunk as the proverbial lord telling servants and staff alike to EFF OFF! amongst other things.....courtesy of the taxpayer ..of course.
Personally im neither pro-monarchy nor anti- monarchy Im largely indifferent..they neither enrich my life nor debase it...i dont celebrate their existence,and doubt i would mourn their passing.
Actually maria mexico ,peru etc were first invaded by the spanish,who on arriving promptly set about converting the native aztecs ,incas to catholicism ( converting people to the spanish faith actually meant torturing and slaughtering them)
I dont think the battle of the Alamo was quite as you have stated but never mind.santa anna was a saint i guess and sam houston the devil.
hi robert,
The EU i think,to begin with anyway,was as much a safeguard against europe going to war with each other again,i.e countries closely united by trade finance etc are less likely to go to war against each other...not a watertight thing maybe but....now of course the ultimate aim is to become one complete nation (under god i presume) which of course creates new dangers for the world,or could do. But of course member countries have the choice to act independently (so far) as exampled by britain and others sending troops to iraq ,while others refused and sat on their hands.I think thatcher in particular did extract some "advantages" from the EU in her time,and tried to get the best for britain....since then of course our politicians have just nodded and agreed to almost anything brussels has put forward.We are inextricably linked now through trading markets etc...to withdraw now would put us in an even worse state...frankly i think we are doomed.damned if we do-damned if we dont!
As for being a proud nation again,how can we? what is our nation any more? a rusted,corroded melting pot,a nation with no direction,no sense of belonging or any real sense of britishness(watever that is).....a country peopled mainly by what i can only describe as "the walking wounded and living dead" lol
Im only half joking there.
but britain today is in my mind little short of an island assylum..an assylum in which the leaders govern not from without -but from within.....they ,and we ,are here for the long haul.
I would describe the powers that be of this country as "SHAM giants surrounded by REAL pygmies"....excuse me ive booked my flight to the moon,....the rocket takes off soon....one way ticket...care to join me anyone?
Hi Dougie,
The Princess of Wales was respected for all the work she did, remember that she was the patron of 200 charities, no less, and her presence meant that the charities really benefited by having her as a patron, otherwise, they wouldn't have asked her. I have done charity work, and I can tell you that the most I have done is £100 pounds a day, and I have often thought... if Princess Diana was here with me, then the charity would get thousands of pounds, rather than the measly £100 pound per day. Where have you been hiding ? Didn't you see the demostrations of love for her when she died ? People care more about the work the Princess did for these charities which benefited millions of people, than for whatever might, or might not have happened in her private affairs. And that, in the end is what really matters the most, and for what she will be remembered for. Diana was a good human being, not a saint !
Well, the latest research on plants suggest that these do have feelings they are not like rocks. A scientist put up sensors on plants and every time he would get a kettle with boiling water near the plant, the sensors detected something like a recoil from the plant. They also found that if classical music is played to the plants, they grow better and faster, so maybe the Prince was correct in talking to his plants after all.
Hi Dougie
The EU may have had an anti-war aim when it started. A more stupid way of trying to avert a war I cannot imagine, but then these people were stupid enough for anything. And naturally they drew the wrong moral, because part of the responsibility for World War Two can be laid at the door of the peace-lovers. One shouldn't be too hard on them, I suppose, given the awful memories of World War One. But they were certainly soft in the head.
Maria, you know more about Spanish history than I do. But I would say that if these colonies weren't yet nations, they were on their way to becoming nations, and didn't feel part of the Spanish nation - or they wouldn't have gone off on their own.
Maria...as it happens princess diana wasnt the one i was talking about...but anyway.it was tragic when she died ,but no more tragic than anyone elses death..and yes of course i saw the outpourings of grief in the aftermath....ghow could anyone miss them...it was 24 hours non-stop-wall to wall Diana-diana-diana,the media went absolutely crazy and bored 90%of the population to tears in my opinion.I think even the rent -a-mobs tired of it in the end..pure showbiz!......diana-queen of hearts-my ass! how many marriages did she break up? 3 to my knowledge...at least....she was at the least unhinged..at the worst mentally ill in my opinion. She played to the media at every turn,and then complained bitterley when the press focused on her....she "played"charles like a pet monkey it appeared to me. she was no better ,and no worse than any other person...be sensible.
Do you seriously think that having a conversation with a yucca plant is normal behaviour? cmon-are you kidding me?
Robert,
I think the countries (nations) who kicked out the spanish did so prob cos they were A..sick of being tortured by some guy in a black robe and hood waving a rosary...B sick of having a crucifix waved in their face everytime they left the house.....or C sick of hearing Ave Maria sung and the chiming of church bells.....as in the hunchback of notre dames famous and eternal words.."The bells!-The bells!-them damn bells!"
though personally i prefferred the !Water!-waaaater!-Wawter!" scene myself.
I rather liked "The Pit And The Pendulum" with Vincent Price. But then, I wasn't on the receiving end of the pendulum.
Re Charles, I dare say he talked to Sir Anthony Blunt, and he was a plant.
Hi Dougie, Robert,
The reasons the Latin American countries had their independence was manifold. One of the reasons was social. During the Spanish colonial rule, Spanish being born in Spain were considered at the top of the social echeleon, next were those who had Spanish parents but were born in the colonies and even though they were from Spanish stock, they were no longer considered Spanish, so they were second in the social order, then the third category were those who had a Spanish father but a native mother and last, were the native Americans. Often Spanish ladies who were expecting a baby would go back to Spain in order to have their child, just so that the boy or girl would be considered Spanish. Another reason was because Spain did not allow the colonies to produce anything that Spain already produced, like wine, tiles, etc. The colonies were only allowed to produce raw materials to be shipped back to Spain and that was all. I won't go into the other many reasons because the space is short and I feel sleepy. Tomorrow..
Hi Victoria,
I saw your little post and I wanted to ask you, how do Australians see the Monarchy ? I remember many years ago that the Australian government did a referendum and found that the Monarchy was very popular with the people. Is Robert talking about a new referendum ?
Hi Maria, Robert and dougie ..so many good and funny conversations going on here ..Yes, Robert is right we will be having another referendum, not sure when and it is only a matter of time before we become a republic. If not this referendum the next .. the labour party has always wanted it and I think now probably most of the population.Personally I am happy with the way things are .. I like the stable background of the monarchy and the Queen. And my family heritage is British. But I know they are not what they should be .. except for the Queen who has fulfilled her 'duty' in this life by serving the people. The rest of them are pretty ordinary ..Robert, I have never thought about you having a choice in the constitution, I suppose you should really .. but to me it wouldn't seem fair to dump us or other countries already there, that are under your wing. dougie, like Maria I see nothing wrong with talking to plants, I do it myself even .. I even truly believe that it works! As for Diana I feel sorry for her in that she was just looking for love, as her husband did not really love her. But saying that ... the life that she chose .. was a public life of serving her country that should maybe have been her focus, instead of herself. Yes she was loved and did great things for charity, but maybe that is not that hard when you are in such a position, everything is organised for you and you just turn up.I don't mean to be critical of her in any way .. life is hard for all of us in different ways, none of us is perfect.The outpouring of grief that we saw for Diana and now Michael Jackson, I really feel is not totally about 'their departure'. I feel people see someone young, beautiful and famous die and they realise their own mortality and the fragility of life, and so a lot of the grieving is really just selfish. I feel this from my own experience when my mother died at a young age(53)I was inconsolable for so long. When I really looked at why and what was going on, it was all about 'me'. Not having her here for 'me'.. I knew she was free from the hurts and pains of life. Maybe this just seems more logical or easier for me to see because of my belief that death is not the end.Sorry all, didn't mean to carry on so much on the subject.
My above post may not be so clear to read, I am not sure what happened and it is too late to edit. I had paragraphs and new lines and spaces, where they should be (or where I like them) I even previewed the post .. but it has come out in one mash, sorry.
Victoria thank you for your posts. Well, when Benito Mussolini and Hitler died there wasn't any grieving in the streets but jubilation. If Tony Blair died tomorrow I would most certainly organize a street party and open my champagne bottle to celebrate it. The same when both of the Georges Bushes die. But just like the weeds that never die, I saw that the older George Bush jumped from a parachute to celebrate his 70 something birthday and the old thing unfortunatelly did not brake his bones and die. That would have made my day. I have to agree with you about the plans that are afoot concerning Australia, I think the Queen is the cohesive asset that unites the United Kingdom with the Common Wealth, and Australia is a shinning example how well it works to be part of the crown. The Labour Party in your country wants all the power and this is why it is seeking to get rid of the crown. It will be a great mistake, since when you do not have a redress with your politicians, you won't have the opportunity to write to the Queen like I have done to express my concerns. Whenever the House of Commons wants to pass a stupid law, there is always the comfort that the motion will be defeated in the House of Lords, who in my view are more sensible than the craziness that goes on, in the House of Commons. An example of that, is the daft ID cards. We already have enough documentation to prove who we are, so we do not need yet another expensive card to prove our identity. The politicians are saying that this will deterr terrorism. But what makes them think that terrorists won't have ID cards too ? All the terrorists that perpetrated the horrendus attacks in London were all home grown ! You see, this is the kind of half baked policies that they come up with. Luckily for us, the days for our own Labour government are few and we are counting the days when they will be voted out soon. Whilst our Queen will still be there, whoever gets elected. That is the advantage.. continuity, rather than uncertainty and chaos ahead, like it happens in Central America where different factions jostle for power. The latest happening there, is that the president of Honduras is going to be allowed back into his country and the President of Costa Rica is going to mediate with the Junta that got illegally into power through a coup d'atet, and so president Zelaya will be allowed to continue as president until his term ends in six months time. Phew !
Hi Victoria
Well, I was opposed to Europe from the start and did not want to dump countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, whom we can trust, in favour of the Europeans, whom we can't. Unfortunately when they held a referendum here in 1975 all the people of the so-called centre ground - the three main political parties, the BBC, the Church of England, big business, the trade unions, the chattering classes - all the crooks, in other words - advised people to vote to stay in. The leadership of the No campaign tended to be more on the left and right wings. Men like Enoch Powell, who could speak several languages including an Indian language, were denounced as racists and xenophobes, while a nonentity like Ted Heath - did you ever see that clip where he attempted to mouth a few words of French? - were hailed as cosmopolitan internationalists.
The British people swallowed the con and voted two to one to stay in. There is a price to be paid for stupidity, and the British have been paying it ever since.
Robert, I do travel a lot and have seen the great opportunities that belonging to the European Union brings. It would be crazy not to be part of it, since most of our gross income comes from trade with the EU. To put us in a situation where we do not have a say in it, is foolish. Ireland for example, has prospered a lot from belonging to the EU. Ireland was at one point, even called a Celtic Tiger economy and it had all their roads built by the Germans to a high standard also the EU offered a lot of cash incentives which the Irish businesses took to their great advantage. I know, that the Irish recently did not agree with the Lisbon Treaty in their referendum as they voted NO to it, whilst our government voted YES on our behalf without consulting us first about it and the Treaty went in, without the British people even noticing that it was passed through ! I think most people in the U.K. don't know even know or have any idea what the Lisbon Treaty is all about. So we, the people, are to blame for not stopping our government in doing things without even having the courtesy of asking us about it first.
Another advantage of belonging to the EU, is police co-operation, sometimes criminals go to another country, and without this cooperation, a criminal can simply escape the net and live quite happily abroad knowing full well, they won't be caught. Also resources can be shared too. Like the time we had a shortage of nurses and doctors whilst in Spain it was the opposite; where they had a surplus of nurses, so we borrowed their nurses for a while, until another crop of British nurses graduated to fill the vacancies needed. We got the doctors from Germany too. There is a myriad of ways the EU could co-operate with us. Remaining in the fringes when other countries like the Turkish are begging to belong to this exclusive club of the EU its simply incomprehensible ! and short-sighted.
Hi Maria
Since thanks to the open borders policy there is no bar to the EU sending us their crooks, the least they can do is share their police with us. As for trade, we used to trade with the whole of the world. We used to do it in ships. That was before Paris and Berlin suddenly became the centre of our universe.
Sorry, but I am not convinced.
By the way, is there any chance that the EU accounts might be properly audited and passed any time soon?
The European community ultimately will fail....same as socialism does whener or wherever its introduced....the reason? sooner or later it will run out of other peoples money,the money which funds the whole insane mess.....money given as subsidies to encourage industries or communities NOT to produce certain crops or NOT to seed arable land(to keep prices at a certain level) money taken from prosperous member countries to fund not so prosperous,and in cases dead loss member states. Money given to french farmers to support their corrupt and totakly inneficient farming policies.....money to promote more and more workers rights,benefits ,which are ok for the worker but in the end destroys those industries in which the benefitting workers work.Tariffs and taxes for this and taxes for that . Social blueprints drawn up ,it seems almost every day....regulations to decree what size the tomatoes or cucumbers we purchase should be....and hefty fines for those that break these silly and inane laws. the introduction of metrification for all,regardless of whether its needed....decimilisation.culturalisation, standardization, pluralism,..the list goes on......all paid for by grants, subsidies, member states contributions (that means you and me).....with the guys who run this beauracratic (sic) nightmare leading a lifestyle that would have put the roman emperors to shame.Yes im afraid Robert is correct,we are still paying the price for the actions and crass stupidity and short sightedness of the government which had that bumbling,guffawing,homosexual babboon ted heath at the helm. But now,we havent really got the option of getting out..we are stuck in the quagmire .....stuck.like pigs in ----!
Hello Victoria,
I think you were being very honest relating your feelings regarding your mothers death.Its a fact that every human being is completely selfish....everything we do is devoted to satiating OUR OWN senses....every loss we endure we focus on OUR loss not the persons actual death. We collect for charity for instance,or do a good deed, but really ,underneath it all(and we arent consciously aware of it maybe),the REAL motive is to make OURSELVES feel good about what we have done.
I wish i could share your belief in an after life Victoria..but i cant...i dont really know what the purpose of an afterlife would be....and to be frank a life in heaven dressed in white,playing a harp and singing gods praises for eternity would be the nearest thing to hell i could imagine....first day or week may be a novelty -but after that?
The outpourings of grief towards diana were largely a concoction of the media......even elton john (one of her close friends and confidants) at aone stage said "isnt enough enough?"Thats the trouble over here..some people never know when to stop! we had the usual scams in operation...millions of pounds collected for poor old prince harry and prince whatsisname to make sure they were provided for...what a joke! i know diana only left 14,000,000 pounds in her will but even so.the diana memorial fund was yet another money maker....another few millions to build some stupid memorial on an artificial island somewhere (cant remember the location) bought and paid for by her adotring fans ..i.e by the public-for the public....trouble is victoria if you want to visit it will cost you around £25 a go to see it...though in the interests of charity the canoe trip (50 yards i believe)to get you there is "free"...that includes the services of the no doubt drunken ferryman,who for an extra £5 will ,im sure,if asked nicely,, throw in a rather throaty rendition of"woman is the nigger of the world" if asked.....musical accompaniment might well be extra.
Diana badges,tee shirts,teddy bears,are available (at a price)rumour has it that diana and dodi hamburgers will also soon be raising their questionable heads...and glory be! if so inclined there is also an opportunity to make a contribution towards this sacred shrine,to ensure that future generations may also be relieved of ther hard earned money.
I was looking through casebook few weeks ago Victoria and noted with a degree of jealousy that Ally had told you to Eff off!......isnt she an objectionable hobbly hoi? its amazing how one posters "eff off" doesnt break the rules in quite the same way as another posters "eff off" does.....It must be the way one says "eff off" i assume....but worry not victoria you are now in exalted company..from her -its almost a compliment.
Dougie,
I have news for you, the Europeans pay half in taxes than we pay, this is why I buy all my clothes in Spain. The food in the Continent is taxed half than we pay here, so entire families can go together to enjoy a meal out at a restaurant, that would be crippling to anyone who would dare to do this in the U.K. unless you are a millionaire who can pay a restaurant bill for 15 people. You can do that in Spain easily, without braking the bank. Our crooked politicians invent new taxes that the masses accept without batting an eye-lid. e.g. the new telephone tax for broad-band where everyone is going to have to pay extra tax for each phone you have. We already paid our broad-band years ago, but we won't be exempt from it, since we will still be forced to pay it again.
Dougie, if the EU pays the not so prosperous countries, then we are due to be paid soon, since we are now not exactly "prosperous" after the Blair irresponsible adventures in the Middle East. As if that was not enough The U.S. has had the cheek to asked another 17 Billion pounds to the EU to contribute.
About the crops and fishing quotas this is to protect the sea from running out of cod, its an environmental consideration. The crops its the same story, the earth needs to rest for a while, you cannot grow in it year after year, it wears out the soil eventually.
Robert,
You mean we trade crooks with the EU. ? or have you forgotten our export of crooks to La Costa Del Sol ? which is a paradise for British crooks.
Ibiza has last year torn all their inexpensive accomodation which only attracts English louts, who run wild in the streets, the Spanish propietors are tired of the vicious street fights, the drunks and also the bars having their windows and tables broken, one of them described the British as drunken animals, the way they behave. So now, the new hotels will charge four times more to attract another type of clientele. for these holiday season.
Maria, of course one of the reasons we're taxed is to pay our contributions to the EU.
Am I mistaken, or did the entire EU Commission once resign on the same day amid a corruption scandal....only to be reinstated the next day?
Am I also mistaken that a high-ranking French politician who was a convicted bank fraudster, got a top job in the EU? At least he'd have felt at home.
And how can a European organization be exclusive when it invites a non-European country to join? Of course, the Ruropeans are already sticking their noses in where they don't belong - telling Turkey that they must abolish the death penalty. Now if this European Community were a purely trading association, as they used to make out they were before they showed their true colours, there'd be no need for them to concern themselves with Turkey's policy on law and order.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/297461.stm
Maria, going back to your Spanish point : Spain should have the right to refuse entry to any undesirable from any country, and there shouldn't be any soft judges poking their noses in. It should be a decision solely for the Government.
As regards the drunkenness, we are probably here running into the human rights contagion. I have seen footage of British police on British streets trying to deal with aggressive drunks and virtually having to plead with them to behave. All that's really needed is a few truncheons and a dustcart to take the drunks to the police station.
Here's another one.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4032113.stm
Yes Robert. I see that at the EU they are having the same problems that we have the our MP's of appropriating funds I see that having more layers of government means more corruption too. I did notice that the Liberal Democrats have complained about it and joined the UK anti European Party. The UK anti European party, also was sleazy with their expenses here in the U.K. too.
So I can see your concerns about paying for this EU membership only to be fleeced twice with another layer of burocracy. That was amazing how such a crook could go there unnoticed it doesn't say who blew the whistle on the article. Its a scandal the same way as the MP's scandals over here I suppose.
Hello dougie,
thank you for the lovely post, everything that you said in the beginning re selfishness .. are my sentiments exactly.
It is a great thing to see and realise the truth in those comments that you made.
I remember ages ago on casebook speaking to you in regard to spiritual or Buddhist type things, and you mentioned something about delving into that a bit .. maybe it was back in the 60's.
My beliefs in an afterlife do not mean hanging around in heaven, having a wonderful time, but more the prospect of returning here to continue purifying the soul for our evolution.
I did not realise all those things that you mentioned re the charity collections and Dianas shrine.
And what an unbelievable thing it is to have collected all that money for William and Harry .. that seems ludicrous to me.
As for Ally, I saw the thread about books and I nearly did not post when I realised it was her thread, but did anyway.
I was just having fun with her, her reaction was so crude and unexpected .. but on reflection it was good because then everyone can see her true colours.
And you are right, someone else behaving like that would be banned or at least given a warning.
Hello Robert,
glad you didn't want to dump us down here .. that makes me feel better!
You said, "There is a price to be paid for stupidity, and the British have been paying it ever since."
They say you get the government that you deserve.
And it is probably true of everything in life .. not that it seems like it of course, we think many things unfair.
Gosh Maria ..
"phew" was right,
I think you are very passionate about the subject of politics, second only to your love of art?
I'm exhausted just reading all this stuff!
Hi Robert, about Turkey. The Turkish territory is half in Europe and half in Asia past the Bosphorus it becomes part of the Middle East. Thousands of Europeans live in the European side of Turkey and they would be protected under the wing of the EU if Turkey is admitted into the Union. Its just like Israel, that even though Israel is situated in the Middle East, they are always included in the European song contest and even won the contest one year.
Hello Victoria,
thank you for your kind comments. I also believe Australia, Canada and all the other countries in the Common Wealth should not abandon the union that currently exists between our countries, unity brings strength and co-operation and I hope your government doesn't decide to abandon the Common Wealth as this will be a great shame specially as it has worked so well for so long, why change it for uncharted waters ? Given that politicians are not to be trusted anywhere in the world.
The Memorial Fountain for Princess Diana apart from being very expensive, it is a health hazard and it remains closed for most of the time. It doesn't even look like a fountain either, its more like a cement river ruining a park in London, it cost millions because the "artist" charged an obscene amount of money and quite frankly, it doesn't represent anything.
About the charity work, I don't do charity work any more, nor contribute one single dime to anything, apart from recycling my books to Oxfam since I found out that a lot of the charities lost millions of pounds by investing huge amounts of money in Iceland. The Cat Charity alone, lost a million pounds sterling. What was all this money doing in a bank in Iceland ? when it should have been used to help the cats ? These days, I do not give any money to beggars in the street either, I see them with disdain, since they get more than 3 free meals to choose from daily from several charities and they could also occupy themselves in something useful instead of begging to buy themselves alcohol or drugs, suddenly, I don't have any sympathy for them anymore, I used to, but not anymore, I specially despise the ones who sit with a dog in the streets to draw sympathy from passers by and get more money. A programme on T.V. showed that these beggars can make about 100 pounds a day.
Hi Victoria
you're right, of course, the British people themselves are to blame in all this, in particular those people who insisted on toddling up the road to vote for Quislings, collaborators, fraudsters and various other kinds of scum.
Maria, I assure you that only a tiny, tiny piece of Turkey is in Europe - the vastly greater part of it is in Asia Minor. However if the EU thinks that Turkey is in Europe, that doesn't bode well for the other countries in the region. If I were them, I'd be worried that I might go to bed an Asian and wake up a European - the way that a man in 1938 could suddenly find himself transformed from an Austrian into a German.
Hi Vistoria
I see what you mean about bereavement. On the other hand, the distinction between ourselves and the people we love gets blurred, doesn't it? What are any of us, for the most part, except the sum of the people who've deeply affected our lives? I sometimes feel that there isn't much of me left. One day I'll go to a funeral, and there won't be any real point in my going home again afterwards!
As for an afterlife, I'm up for it provided god is left out of it. But for there to be any sense in saying that it's "me" who is having the afterlife, I would have to continue existing with the same memories etc that I had when I was alive - and hopefully meet the same people I met in this life (but only the important ones).
If I were born again in another body without any of my memories then I don't see precisely what the difference would be between saying "this is me reborn" and "this is a new person called Fred." As for being reborn as a wasp or a giraffe, I can see no meaning in that whatsoever - though I have no difficulty imagining politicians as dung beetles.
I suppose this is as good a map as any.
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/tr.htm
Of course, at one time the Turks owned large chunks of the Balkans and almost reached the gates of Vienna. But this was owing to conquest. The Turkish Empire formally ceased to exist after World War One.
A Russian tsar of the nineteenth century described Turkey as "the sick man of Europe" - but that was in the days when the Turkish Empire extended into Europe. To describe Turkey now as a European country because of the little bit on the other side of the Bosphorus, would be like describing Britain as a Spanish country because of Gibraltar.
Gotta say Im agreeing with Robert a lot lately....but yes,coming back to this earth to live our lives again might be all well and good...but if we come back not as ourselves but as somebody else,cant see the purpoae it would seve....and just think of the ultimate nightmare, returning as a combination of all the things you loathe and detest in this life.could return as a mass murderer,a paedophile,or heaven help us ,maybe even Ally Ryder 2..theres a thought!
I know the train of thought that the eastern philosophies follow,and its not without its merits,but the "evolution thing" could only really work if we came back knowing our previous faults and rectifying them ad infinitum for eternity. But what interests me more about religion is the fact that the popes,mullahs ,bishops etc who have preached the message through the centuries, in an awful lot of cases ,didnt exactly practise what they preached,which seems to me to indicate that the "preachers" didnt believe the message themselves and by following on from that ,didnt believe in god either......In the middle ages catholic emissaries even sold gullible catholics a document which guarranteed their entrance to heaven.....with this document..great!... without the document,forget it-you are going to hell!The pope sanctioned this practise,no doubt raking in a commission .Who was it who said.."The human race isnt capable of creating one living thing-yet it creates Gods by the hundreds"?
Yet i must say ive experienced 3 times at kleast, happenings which i can only describe as being beyond my understanding ,things of an un earthly nature,things which would indicate some kind of existence outside of this earthly world. logic tells me religion is humbug-but experience tells me it might not be.....
Dougie & Robert,
A question for you two:
If the Romans had a successful Empire that stretched all the way to Jerusalem, past the Bosphorus 2000 years ago, why can't we ? are we dumber ? It has been done before even without the technology we have now.
Good gracious, Maria, what a nightmare vision. I would rather jump off a cliff than live in The Village.
Maria, yes we had a program like that here showing how much a beggar on the street could make .. they had a reporter pretending to be one. There were certain spots that were better for results etc.
Years back when I was in London for some months at a time, there was a beggar who sat, virtually right next to the 'hole in the wall' that I used to get my money, it was so obvious that I did not feel bad not giving him anything.
But generally a lot on the streets, I do feel sorry for, they are either alcoholics or seem to have mental problems and probably do not have the strength of mind to lift themselves out of their plight. It seems a sad waste of life for them, and I know if you give them money they will probably go and buy some cheap alcohol. I have a friend who will talk to them, ask them their story and take them somewhere and buy them food.
Fortunately or unfortunately it will not be our government that decides about keeping the commonwealth ties .. it will be the people.
I know what you say re the 'unchartered waters' and the unity and strength, I cannot see any reason to change things.
By the way, the link that you sent me to watch .. Heir Hunters did not work .. it said something about having to be in the UK to view it, disappointing.
Robert,
you are very funny with your comments .. politicians as dung beetles!.. and the funeral bit.
I think it is more along the lines that we just 'think' of ourselves as the sum total of all our thoughts and feelings, and the people who have affected our lives as you say.
But that according to most ancient scriptures is not so, the truth of who we are is beyond all that.
In Vedanta philosophy (indian tradition), they say 'You cannot be what you observe' .. so that rules out the mind even .. as you can 'watch' your mind and its antics.
I do think though in our 'learning' process here we do meet up again with the same people, but we do not usually recognise them.
dougie,
I doubt you would come back as Ally .. heaven forbid!
You know the saying 'What you eat today, walks and talks tomorrow'..
well I believe it is just like that .. we are creating our future by our actions of today.
It would be highly unlikely to come back as a mass murderer, unless your actions in this life were on that downward spiral.
There is another saying that if you see a man beating a dog .. you stop him. Not for the dogs sake but for his .. his actions are leading him back toward the animal realm which is very difficult to come back from (so it is said).
Mind you it is also said that the Lord is very merciful .. we are given many chances.
And as you said dougie re only a purpose if it were coming back to rectify our previous 'faults' .. as you know, that is karma.
Also, you have had 'experiences' to make you think that there could be something beyond what we normally see. Most ancient eastern scriptures .. are written from personal experiences of the sages, verified by others on the path.
Anyway, I am not here to try to change the subject .. I'll let you all get back to the business of politics.
Victoria, Robert, Dougie,
Well, I think I have come back as Dr. Frankestein in my life time with this mounster of a thread !
Maybe I will open another thread as this one just got to long !
And maybe our two boys can answer why if the Roman Empire extended all the way to Lybia in Africa and Jerusalem why the EU cannot go to Turkey ? (which is still in Europe)
considering Jerusalem, is past the Bhosforos.
Hi Maria
I would appreciate it if you would open a thread for Victoria's religious ideas, which sound interesting.
Also, the problems of life, death and the meaning of life suddenly seem soluble when compared to the Middle East!
Maria,
The romans built their empire without modern technology (obviously),but altho they didnt have our technology,ythey did indeed have one big advantage.They werent hindered by rule books,you accepted their rule-or you were crucified,beheaded,stoned to death etc.....very similar to the muslim empire of today im guessing.Plus of course the romans had a senate,decisions were made and implemented by a single body,and i presume caesar had the final say anyway. Today we just have talking shops...talk talk but do nothing,inability to agree on almost anything,and in general we have societies that seem to applaud moral cowardice and treat it as a virtue.Im not by the way advocating empire building.
One ray of hope though,it seems the public (in the shape of one teacher)is begginning to fight back.......ill say no more about that.
Victoria,
While the general religious view is that god is kind merciful etc,the evidence actually suggests the opposite......in childhood god makes the croup,chickenpox,mumps virus and more to attack us and then adds such problems as teething,wind etc to make the childs life even more painful....who would treat their children like that?
in the middle years,god changes tack a little and creates cancer,heart disease, bladder problems,and a whole host of other issues to continue this process.....who would treat their children like that?
In old age god introduces arthritus,rheumatism,dementia and more to plague us even further..........who would treat their children like that?
God creates sin ,then castigates us for being sinful....we are told nothing can happen without god knowing of it-nothing can hapopen without god WILLING it.....
Is it not a fair thing to say, that one could be forgiven for thinking god has been misrepresented as far his his aims and general nature has been described?To me he seems the very opposite of what ive been led to believe.
God wants our love-god wants our praises-god wants us to devote our lives in worship..to whom?-to him of course. god wants us to believe in him unquestionabley,without hesitation.god wants us to laty prostrate before him and worship him....again to sing his praises.Am i missing something here? or do these teachings indicate a very VAIN being? ...isnt vanity and pride supposed to be a sin?
Victoria
Just like to add regarding your comment about mankind slipping DOWN and into the animal world.....Im not so sure that might necessarilly be a retrograde step...in my view there are far more principles,ethics and morals in the animal kingdom than there has ever been in ours.
for example, give a dog food,shelter,show him friendship,he/she will remain faithfull and love his owner for as long as he/she lives.....and its love is unquestioning,it isnt given for reward or gain.......very few humans share those sentiments....maybe the downward step is from animal to man..not vice versa?
I hadn't realised this thread was still going.
Dougie, re your remarks about our merciful father : I agree 100 percent.
Victoria, it's true that some animals are worth more than some human beings. The dog I had, for instance, was a wonderful dog. On the other hand, Myra Hindley was someone whom I could electrocute between two puffs on my cigarette.
But the animal world is cruel too. Though there are examples of cooperation - such as the elderly female leopard who was accepted by a mother leopard and allowed to babysit the cub - there is terrible carnage as well. Have you seen a pack of hyenas slowly killing a wildebeest? Or a pod of killer whales attacking a sperm whale and her calf?
There is a cuttlefish, I think, where the one that's mating with the female is eaten from behind by another cuttlefish, who is being eaten from behind by another one, who.....
I'm afraid the universe is senseless. A comet from the sky can wipe out entire species. A drunken driver can mow down a child. Evil wastes of space like Mao tse Tung drag out their useless and senseless existences into an undeserved old age.
The only purpose of this world is what we give it.
Sorry Victoria, my remarks about the animals should have been addressed to Dougie.
Robert,
I take your point about how some animals eat their young...kill other animals etc...but I think its only man that inflicts pain -knowing it to be pain.(oi.e for fun)on others.now without getting inside an animals mind there is indeed no way of proving that...so i guess it must only be an opinion.
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